Class 185 "Excess Weight"

[SpacePhoenix]

What aspect(s) of the class 185s makes them noticeably heavier then other DMUs? Could some of the bits making them really heavy be replaced with lighter weight alternatives?

 

[ash39]

Too many passengers !

 

[fgwrich]

Well, for a start Siemens does admit that it has over engineered the SF5000 bogies underneath all Desiro UKs, which led to the development of the SF7000 from 2007 (Way before the launch of the Desiro city or Bombardiers increased use of the FlexxEco). Here's a quote from Siemens / Rail Engineer article.

Helmut Ritter is Head of Engineering, Bogies, and to him fell the task of developing the new bogie. “We needed the new bogie to be lighter than the old SF5000 – much lighter,” he commented. “The reduced weight would consume less energy, and also be kinder to the track resulting in lower track access charges for our customers.

http://www.railengineer.uk/2012/03/28/bogies-for-thameslink/

The body construction will also add to the heavier weight of the Desiros, although there's little you can do to reduce the weight of that!

 

[J-2739]

The overpowered Cummins engine, I suppose.

 

[fgwrich]

The overpowered Cummins engine, I suppose.

True, but I'd rather have an overpowered DMU like thee QSK19 lump under the 185s than the underpowered and sluggish ex lorry engine under the 170s.

 

[D365]

True, but I'd rather have an overpowered DMU like thee QSK19 lump under the 185s than the underpowered and sluggish ex lorry engine under the 170s.

And end up with a unit that seems impossible to cascade?

 

[FordFocus]

Bogies mainly. Think the body is heavier than an equivalent Turbostar product?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And end up with a unit that seems impossible to cascade?

As has been said before, Britain has a number of rail routes where hill climbing ability would be most useful. How many future active years of life do the Class 185 units still have in them?

 

[D365]

As has been said before, Britain has a number of rail routes where hill climbing ability would be most useful.

Which are unfortunately outnumbered by routes where their mass becomes a hinderance. Even the South TPE route where they will remain is better suited to a Class 170 or 158 pair.

How many future active years of life do the Class 185 units still have in them?

I'd say about 20-25 years, all being well.

 

[Mikey C]

The overpowered Cummins engine, I suppose.

The same basic unit is also used in the 180s and 220/1/2s, which are 125mph trains.

So effectively they have a larger engine than needed, just to provide the hill climbing capabilities.

 

[keith1879]

Sometimes it feels like nobody likes the 185s. I reckon I've done over 100000 miles as a passenger on them between Manchester and Newcastle and intermediate stations - nearly all to get to and from work. Other than being too cold in their early years I think they are excellent. Leg-room especially is super.

 

[AlterEgo]

I love the 185s. They're a little tired now but they have a great sound and they feel solid.

 

[J-2739]

Sometimes it feels like nobody likes the 185s. I reckon I've done over 100000 miles as a passenger on them between Manchester and Newcastle and intermediate stations - nearly all to get to and from work. Other than being too cold in their early years I think they are excellent. Leg-room especially is super.

185s are a bit dull when slow and on eco-mode', but when all the engines are ramped up, there are few DMU's that match it! Also the air-con is a big breeze.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sometimes it feels like nobody likes the 185s. I reckon I've done over 100000 miles as a passenger on them between Manchester and Newcastle and intermediate stations - nearly all to get to and from work. Other than being too cold in their early years I think they are excellent. Leg-room especially is super.

I quite like them, I just think there's many ways they could've been better...
1) Should've been longer (not the fault of the units).
2) Should've been lighter, as pretty much confirmed by the quote from the Siemens engineer upthread.
3) Corridor connections!
4) More of them, allowing (3) to be used more.

 

[ashworth]

As has been said before, Britain has a number of rail routes where hill climbing ability would be most useful. How many future active years of life do the Class 185 units still have in them?

Would the use of Class 185 units on the Settle to Carlisle line reduce journey times due to their hill climbing ability. I know that the S & C was originally built for fairly high speed running and so the hill climbing is over long distances rather than being really steep. However, on the current stopping services would a 185 make a difference with all the stops on a long uphill climb.

 

[xc170]

Would the use of Class 185 units on the Settle to Carlisle line reduce journey times due to their hill climbing ability. I know that the S & C was originally built for fairly high speed running and so the hill climbing is over long distances rather than being really steep. However, on the current stopping services would a 185 make a difference with all the stops on a long uphill climb.

Doubt you would need all 22 units though, unless you propose a frequency increase...

 

[edwin_m]

As has been said before, Britain has a number of rail routes where hill climbing ability would be most useful. How many future active years of life do the Class 185 units still have in them?

A lighter bodyshell would also help with hill climbing, allowing even better performance and/or less fuel consumption. A 100mph 185 weighs about the same per car as a 125mph tilting 221.

We have another discussion running on suggested future uses for these units, which is repeating itself enough already without having to repeat it here too!

 

[Haydn1971]

So at the moment, members are thinking of replacing the bogies, the interior, the engines and the bodyshell - hmmm... I somehow think a new train might be cheaper . Hahaha

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We have another discussion running on suggested future uses for these units, which is repeating itself enough already without having to repeat it here too!

The second part in my posting queried the estimated future life span of the Class 185 units. I still await an answer to that part.

 

[D365]

The second part in my posting queried the estimated future life span of the Class 185 units. I still await an answer to that part.

Like I said, probably about 20-25 years. A DMU is typically intended to last 30 years, although it seems that several Sprinter-type classes may well exceed this.

 

[Mordac]

Sometimes it feels like nobody likes the 185s. I reckon I've done over 100000 miles as a passenger on them between Manchester and Newcastle and intermediate stations - nearly all to get to and from work. Other than being too cold in their early years I think they are excellent. Leg-room especially is super.

Sound-proofing in the saloons is the best I've encountered on any DMU. I've been on EMUs that were noisier.

This is especially amazing giving the racket they make when departing a station, which you can clearly hear from the platform.

 

[ac6000cw]

This is especially amazing giving the racket they make when departing a station, which you can clearly hear from the platform.

When they were new, the first one I heard from the lineside was climbing the hill east of Barnetby station - I thought for a moment that it was a Western (diesel-hydraulic) - I think they are noisier from the outside than a modern freight loco.

 

[dosxuk]

this is especially amazing giving the racket they make when departing a station, which you can clearly hear from the platform.

...of the next station along the line.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is the basic structure of the bogies the same as for 350s, 360s, 380s, 444s and 450s?

 

[D365]

Is the basic structure of the bogies the same as for 350s, 360s, 380s, 444s and 450s?

Same product, but hydraulic transmission instead of electric motors.

 

[Crossover]

Sometimes it feels like nobody likes the 185s. I reckon I've done over 100000 miles as a passenger on them between Manchester and Newcastle and intermediate stations - nearly all to get to and from work. Other than being too cold in their early years I think they are excellent. Leg-room especially is super.

I love the 185s. They're a little tired now but they have a great sound and they feel solid.

I rather like them too - not without fault (see below) but there are far worse

I quite like them, I just think there's many ways they could've been better...
1) Should've been longer (not the fault of the units).
2) Should've been lighter, as pretty much confirmed by the quote from the Siemens engineer upthread.
3) Corridor connections!
4) More of them, allowing (3) to be used more.

Can't disagree with that

Sound-proofing in the saloons is the best I've encountered on any DMU. I've been on EMUs that were noisier.

This is especially amazing giving the racket they make when departing a station, which you can clearly hear from the platform.

The noise they make, especially through some of the tunnels, is rather superb! They are certainly fairly quiet internally though

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would it be financially viable for a bulk order of newer design bogies for 350s, 360s, 380s, 444s and 450s to reduce their weight as well?

 

[380101]

I quite like them, I just think there's many ways they could've been better...
1) Should've been longer (not the fault of the units).
2) Should've been lighter, as pretty much confirmed by the quote from the Siemens engineer upthread.
3) Corridor connections!
4) More of them, allowing (3) to be used more.

3) Corridor connections! NO! gangways may appeal to the pen pushers that specify trains, fare dodgers and the odd passenger who wishes to walk the length of the train, but from a driver safety point they are awful.

The amount of equipment in a modern driving cab means that units with gangways such as 380 etc have everything crammed in. This results in an unfriendly driving environment with a narrow forward view and almost no view to the right hand side. The 380 being particularly bad for all of the above.

The 185 has a great cab layout with BIG wide windscreen. Compare the 380 cab to the 700 and you will see what I mean (the 700 cab is the original 380 cab before transport Scotland demanded gangways)

 

[Bevan Price]

3) Corridor connections! NO! gangways may appeal to the pen pushers that specify trains, fare dodgers and the odd passenger who wishes to walk the length of the train, but from a driver safety point they are awful.

The amount of equipment in a modern driving cab means that units with gangways such as 380 etc have everything crammed in. This results in an unfriendly driving environment with a narrow forward view and almost no view to the right hand side. The 380 being particularly bad for all of the above.

The 185 has a great cab layout with BIG wide windscreen. Compare the 380 cab to the 700 and you will see what I mean (the 700 cab is the original 380 cab before transport Scotland demanded gangways)

If they were all 6 coaches, they wouldn't need gangways, but with only 3 coaches that are often overcrowded, gangways would help passengers trying to find vacant seats - or those who get into the wrong half of some 2 x 3 coach formations.

 

[168lover]

185s would suit Chiltern