Class 185 cascade suggestions

[Killingworth]

If they get allocated to Liverpool - Nottingham as 3 car units instead of current 4 car 158s it won't sell well!

 

[ainsworth74]

Assuming they end up on Liverpool - Nottingham if be staggered if they weren't six-car.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It would be nice if they could provide 6 cars as booked for the service stopping at Dore & Totley at 7.14 before they allocate any elsewhere. When 3 turn up folks unable to get on walk back for their cars. Then 6 on the 8.15 that you can almost guarantee having to stand all the way to Piccadilly even with a booked seat.

Packed commuter trains don't attract new business. At leisure times groups travelling together don't like being split up all the way along a train to get seats. The car is cheaper for a group so without seats together rail is even less attractive. Playing musical chairs around reservations might be a game some enjoy, but not many.

Before reallocating these units to new routes let's get them working to relieve existing capacity needs and build on them . They've been promised on South Pennine for years. Those using that route know there's surpressed demand held back by that lack of capacity.

Having some reserve units available to cover unexpected contingencies mightn't come amiss either. For months we were fobbed off with 3 carriages because a train had hit horses on the line. Not even a 185. For months. True enough story, but it didn't sell well with commuters unable to get aboard trains or sitting on the floor in first. That lost TPE season ticket sales.

I think Sheffield is one of the priority 6 car routes as soon as they are avaliable I imagine they will all go up to 6 car.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I agree it's much needed. It would be barmy to let 6 units go off lease and sit around gathering dust while the remaining ones are flogged, out of service for accident and maintenance leaving short forms and deferred repairs. The fleet is over-stretched now and the effects of this can clearly be seen.

 

[ainsworth74]

I agree it's much needed. It would be barmy to let 6 units go off lease and sit around gathering dust while the remaining ones are flogged, out of service for accident and maintenance leaving short forms and deferred repairs. The fleet is over-stretched now and the effects of this can clearly be seen.

Which is why if, and it's still a big if, the Liverpool - Nottingham services go over to TPE I think we'll end up with all 51 185s remaining with the TPE franchise.

 

[class 9]

I would personally consider transferring York - Blackpool to TPE and use the additional units there. That would allow 195's to be used on a more suitable stopping route.

Many years ago, in the early days of privatisation York - Blackpool was part of TPE, this was during Northern Spirit days, before TPE was split off into its own franchise.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Which is why if, and it's still a big if, the Liverpool - Nottingham services go over to TPE I think we'll end up with all 51 185s remaining with the TPE franchise.

I can't see it not going to TPE. Why would they add Nottingham & Derby as selectable destinations to the 185's if they weren't sure they were going to get LIV - NOT?

 

[LowLevel]

I can't see it not going to TPE. Why would they add Nottingham & Derby as selectable destinations to the 185's if they weren't sure they were going to get LIV - NOT?

EMT 15x destination blinds all have Birmingham New Street, Corby and Cambridge on them. Except on hire to Greater Anglia they've never been to any of them in anger.

 

[transmanche]

Why would they add Nottingham & Derby as selectable destinations to the 185's if they weren't sure they were going to get LIV - NOT?

When the 317s arrived on the Great Northern, they had Spalding as a destination on the roller blind...

 

[Killingworth]

I can't see it not going to TPE. Why would they add Nottingham & Derby as selectable destinations to the 185's if they weren't sure they were going to get LIV - NOT?

Programming route destination takes relatively little effort. I believe it was done years ago when noises emanating from TPE suggested they were assuming the Liverpool - Nottingham route was coming to them, and Leicester was another option with Derby another possibilty. In short, it was wishful thinking or bravado.

 

[tbtc]

Many years ago, in the early days of privatisation York - Blackpool was part of TPE, this was during Northern Spirit days, before TPE was split off into its own franchise.

Aye, back when the raspberry coloured 158s went to Sunderland too - TPE used to be (like XC) a mixture of paired destinations with a relatively frequent central core - so one Scarborough service could run through to Blackpool, the one an hour later to Manchester (Airport or Liverpool)... much simpler now, of course.

Why would they add Nottingham & Derby as selectable destinations to the 185's if they weren't sure they were going to get LIV - NOT?

As well as the examples listed by other posters, the 230s were demonstrated with "Huddersfield" on them - it's a fairly simple thing to change the options listed on destination screens (as bus operators have to do every few months) - I remember some bus companies even ordering the old "roller blinds" with exotic destinations on them as some kind of "mind games" against rivals (e.g. when Lothian Buses were still LRT they had places like Peebles on the blinds) - cheap to do - why wouldn't a ROSCO want to suggest how widely used their stock could be?

 

[Meerkat]

Is this where someone suggests Nottingham to Glasgow?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is this where someone suggests Nottingham to Glasgow?

Only if they want their Forum career shortened significantly.....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Many years ago, in the early days of privatisation York - Blackpool was part of TPE, this was during Northern Spirit days, before TPE was split off into its own franchise.

York Blackpool wasn't an officially TPE branded route in Northern Spirit/ATN days. The TPE branded 158s often found themselves on that route but it never had 1st class fares so the section was declassified. Hull also didn't have 1st class fares, as the "WY 10" often appeared on there.

I started a thread years ago when the current franchises were first announced, about where the (then) surplus 185s would go. Despite the issues over SP and MU speeds being repeated ad nauseum it didn't stop people trying to shoehorn them into EMT, or XC's 170 routes.

If LIV-NOT goes to TPE and runs as 6-car at least for the core LIV-SHF section, that leaves a handful spare. Surely the sensible thing to do is use that capacity to try and bring reliability up by not working each unit so intensively. Perhaps keeping a "hot spare" at Piccadilly and/or Neville Hill would be smart too.

 

[tpjm]

It would be nice if they could provide 6 cars as booked for the service stopping at Dore & Totley at 7.14 before they allocate any elsewhere. When 3 turn up folks unable to get on walk back for their cars. Then 6 on the 8.15 that you can almost guarantee having to stand all the way to Piccadilly even with a booked seat.

Packed commuter trains don't attract new business. At leisure times groups travelling together don't like being split up all the way along a train to get seats. The car is cheaper for a group so without seats together rail is even less attractive. Playing musical chairs around reservations might be a game some enjoy, but not many.

Before reallocating these units to new routes let's get them working to relieve existing capacity needs and build on them . They've been promised on South Pennine for years. Those using that route know there's surpressed demand held back by that lack of capacity.

Having some reserve units available to cover unexpected contingencies mightn't come amiss either. For months we were fobbed off with 3 carriages because a train had hit horses on the line. Not even a 185. For months. True enough story, but it didn't sell well with commuters unable to get aboard trains or sitting on the floor in first. That lost TPE season ticket sales.

If you see my theoretical post here, you’ll see there’s adequate 185s to 6 car nearly all the workings and run the LIV - NOT route.

 

[Killingworth]

If you see my theoretical post here, you’ll see there’s adequate 185s to 6 car nearly all the workings and run the LIV - NOT route.

Yup, TPE have been saying that for at least 2 years, but we're all (including them it seems) waiting for confirmation and dates - and presumably financial contracts to be confirmed. Current users want the trains to be strengthened first, as we've been led to expect for that 2 year period.

 

[Greetlander]

Many years ago, in the early days of privatisation York - Blackpool was part of TPE, this was during Northern Spirit days, before TPE was split off into its own franchise.

I've started to believe I imagined this, but I'm convinced in a rail magazine I once saw a photo of a TPE route map that was affixed to the inside of a carriage. Halifax was a destination, thus one would assume from this thread that York and Blackpool were at either end of that line. I think this would have been pre 2002. Could this ever have been a thing?

 

[transmanche]

I've started to believe I imagined this, but I'm convinced in a rail magazine I once saw a photo of a TPE route map that was affixed to the inside of a carriage. Halifax was a destination, thus one would assume from this thread that York and Blackpool were at either end of that line. I think this would have been pre 2002. Could this ever have been a thing?

Yes.

York Blackpool wasn't an officially TPE branded route in Northern Spirit/ATN days.

It definitely was. Here's a timetable booklet from 2003 showing the Blackpool route as part of the Transpennine Express network.


Image of the cover of a 2003 Transpennine Express timetable booklet, showing a map of the TPE network including Blackpool North.

 

[185]

Agree. There was uproar from many who saw the the passing of the route to Northern not TPE as a downgrading of service. Interestingly, for the first 12 months of the TPE franchise, trains were still being worked by TPE crews with the same 158s as before until early 2005.

 

[Philip]

Yes.

It definitely was. Here's a timetable booklet from 2003 showing the Blackpool route as part of the Transpennine Express network.

View attachment 68252
Image of the cover of a 2003 Transpennine Express timetable booklet, showing a map of the TPE network including Blackpool North.

Why is the South TPE route not included there?

 

[greyman42]

If you see my theoretical post here, you’ll see there’s adequate 185s to 6 car nearly all the workings and run the LIV - NOT route.

So has the idea of using the loco hauled services on LIV - NOT been abandoned?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I stand corrected on the Blackpool thing, though I think my point about first class still stands. You were certainly more likely to get something other than a TPE branded 158 on the Blackpool service or the Hull (still the "ginger stepchild" of TPE apparently) than any of the other services via Huddersfield.

Not sure why South TPE wasn't included, had wondered whether it was a FNW route but it was part of RRNE. I guess Northern Spirit felt that grouping North and South Trans-pennine routes would cause more confusion.

 

[tpjm]

Current users want the trains to be strengthened first, as we've been led to expect for that 2 year period.

And as no contracts for additional routes have been signed, lengthening of services will happen before the LIV - NOT route is introduced. It’s all based on the Nova introduction: no Nova - no longer trains.

 

[Neptune]

I stand corrected on the Blackpool thing, though I think my point about first class still stands. You were certainly more likely to get something other than a TPE branded 158 on the Blackpool service or the Hull (still the "ginger stepchild" of TPE apparently) than any of the other services via Huddersfield.

Not sure why South TPE wasn't included, had wondered whether it was a FNW route but it was part of RRNE. I guess Northern Spirit felt that grouping North and South Trans-pennine routes would cause more confusion.

South TPE had it’s own separate timetable in NS days which was gold coloured instead of plum.

In the months between TPE starting (March 2004) and Northern starting (October 2004) the York - Blackpool services operated with TPE units using TPE crews York - Leeds with FC and Northern crews Leeds - Blackpool with FC declassified! I worked a few Blackpool services during this period including units on loan to TPE such as 158741 (from Scotrail), 158759 (from First North Western) and 158850 (from Central Trains). Of course the latter two ended up with Northern.

 

[js1000]

So does the new service mean that almost no 185s will be stored/transferred?

They're too good to be left in storage. TPE are due to return 22 and keep 29.

1) The 'surplus' 22 doesn't include the 6-12 units for the Norwich-Liverpool service which I think could change hands from TPE to EMR quicker than people at DfT's behest if there are spare 185s around doing nothing and collecting dust.

2) Transfer another service to TPE from Northern so they can utilise the surplus 185s. However there does not appear to be provision in Northern's or TPE franchise agreements to do this. The Liverpool to Manchester Airport is another that could revert back to TPE although Northern would be opposed to this as it is one flagship routes.

3) Cascade of a DMU micro-fleet of around 10-15 units to Northern isn't really possible. More hassle than it's worth from training and maintenance perspective. Over the course of the franchise Northern are trying to reduce operating costs by rationalising the units from 16 to about 8 which is a logical step.

Most likely is that TPE to take all the 'surplus' trains on a lease to strengthen services - but which can taken back at short notice by the ROSCO to operate elsewhere if a TOC is looking for relatively modern DMUs. The DfT may have to review the subsidy to allow these 'surplus' units to be retained as this was not in the franchise agreement.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Can't XC take on these which would allow strengthening of some of the routes to and from Birmingham - Leicester, Stansted Airport and Cardiff / Nottingham routes?

Yes they're 100mph stock but that would hopefully take reduce some overcrowding on their Turbostar services - even if it means some platforms being lengthened?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Can't XC take on these which would allow strengthening of some of the routes to and from Birmingham - Leicester, Stansted Airport and Cardiff / Nottingham routes?

Yes they're 100mph stock but that would hopefully take reduce some overcrowding on their Turbostar services - even if it means some platforms being lengthened?

They'd be slower than 170s on many sections, as they can't use the enhanced speeds for Sprinters or other DMUs. Their improved acceleration could mitigate that to an extent but the 185s are heavy- so cost more in terms of both fuel and track access charges.

 

[Killingworth]

And as no contracts for additional routes have been signed, lengthening of services will happen before the LIV - NOT route is introduced. It’s all based on the Nova introduction: no Nova - no longer trains.

Assuming there are paths and platforms to take the services demanded. That's likely to be challenging when more and longer trains are packed into largely unchanged infrastructure.

 

[tpjm]

They're too good to be left in storage. TPE are due to return 22 and keep 29.

That number is not correct. Regardless of LIV - NOT. It changes on a regular basis.

Assuming there are paths and platforms to take the services demanded.

I’m not sure if we’re missing each other’s point?

Infrastructure already allows 6 car working and C-ASDO will enable longer trains to call at short platforms without the need for two guards.

Any new services outside of the enhanced Anglo-Scot offering (for which paths were obtained ages ago) will be the transfer of routes currently operated by other TOCs.

 

[Killingworth]

That number is not correct. Regardless of LIV - NOT. It changes on a regular basis.


I’m not sure if we’re missing each other’s point?

Infrastructure already allows 6 car working and C-ASDO will enable longer trains to call at short platforms without the need for two guards.

Any new services outside of the enhanced Anglo-Scot offering (for which paths were obtained ages ago) will be the transfer of routes currently operated by other TOCs.

It's paths through the Manchester area in particular, but also elsewhere, that may limit new services. Platforms at the Airport and Piccadilly make operating 6 coaches on more services difficult.

For TPE alone it's not too bad, but Northern also want to be able to run longer trains, more often.