Class 185 air con issues

[Sammyh1234]

As the heatwave continues I can’t help but notice a significant increase in the number of complaints about air con issues on tpe trains. I experienced this first hand this afternoon on 185150 which had the middle coach locked out of use due to the air conditioning failing. Is this a common issue with the 185s during hot weather?

 

[ainsworth74]

In previous years I've always considered 185s to have excellent cooling in hot weather. It's like walking into a glorious ice box when joining the train or onto the surface of mercury when leaving the train.

 

[dgl]

And given from what I've heard else where the compared the the new 197's the 185's air-con is far superior, mainly because it's (as I understand) not been disabled/drained fleet wide due to corrosion in the system and the subsequent risk of fire if the refrigerant leaks!

 

[XAM2175]

I was on a number of 185s over the weekend just gone and I did notice the air-conditioning seemed to be a bit weak, actually. It was especially apparent on Sunday as I'd been on beautifully-chilly 802s, 170s, and 397s as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And given from what I've heard else where the compared the the new 197's the 185's air-con is far superior, mainly because it's (as I understand) not been disabled/drained fleet wide due to corrosion in the system and the subsequent risk of fire if the refrigerant leaks!

Is there a known issue with 195 aircon? I was on one last weekend and it was a bit warm, which didn't exactly exude COVID-safety, though I suppose if the air was still being recirculated that's that dealt with.

 

[skyhigh]

Is there a known issue with 195 aircon? I was on one last weekend and it was a bit warm, which didn't exactly exude COVID-safety, though I suppose if the air was still being recirculated that's that dealt with.

There's no problem with the air conditioning on 195s (other than it perhaps being a little bit weedy). The underfloor heating is isolated on the fleet for some reason, but that doesn't affect cooling- and there is another primary heating system for when it gets cooler.

 

[greyman42]

As the heatwave continues I can’t help but notice a significant increase in the number of complaints about air con issues on tpe trains. I experienced this first hand this afternoon on 185150 which had the middle coach locked out of use due to the air conditioning failing. Is this a common issue with the 185s during hot weather?

Why lock the middle coach out of use? If passengers find it too hot they can move to another. I have always been happy to sit in coaches without air con.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why lock the middle coach out of use? If passengers find it too hot they can move to another. I have always been happy to sit in coaches without air con.

COVID, if the air isn't circulating? (I guess just "blowing hot" like 166s often do isn't an issue in that regard).

 

[MattRat]

All this desire to have air con in trains, and people never thought about what would happen if they broke. I know it's old news, but it still makes me chuckle. I've always been fine with just opening a window.

 

[greyman42]

All this desire to have air con in trains, and people never thought about what would happen if they broke. I know it's old news, but it still makes me chuckle. I've always been fine with just opening a window.

The trouble with that is the people who are too hot open the hoppers above their seats and it is the people sat further down, who might be fine with the temperature, who get blasted with cold air throughout their journey.

 

[MattRat]

The trouble with that is the people who are too hot open the hoppers above their seats and it is the people sat further down, who might be fine with the temperature, who get blasted with cold air throughout their journey.

Well clearly that's poor window design.

 

[Domh245]

Well clearly that's poor window design.

It's fundamental fluid mechanics. I'm curious as to what constitutes good window design in your mind

 

[MattRat]

It's fundamental fluid mechanics. I'm curious as to what constitutes good window design in your mind

One that funnels air down, not to the side.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's fundamental fluid mechanics. I'm curious as to what constitutes good window design in your mind

Sliding windows with air dams redirect the air towards the passengers sitting near them. Hoppers don't.

In reality personal vents are probably the best way as they can be pointed at the individual. But very few trains have them - only some Networker EMUs.

 

[ic31420]

Was at ManPicc yesterday and noted that the coupe of 185s had the air con system running full bore on the platforms making quite a racket. Not sure I've noticed that before.

There's no problem with the air conditioning on 195s (other than it perhaps being a little bit weedy). The underfloor heating is isolated on the fleet for some reason, but that doesn't affect cooling- and there is another primary heating system for when it gets cooler.

Wait.... Underfloor heating? Do other trains have that?

 

[skyhigh]

Wait.... Underfloor heating? Do other trains have that?

Couldn't tell you to be honest. It's the only stock I sign that has the feature.

 

[Meridian richard]

Has anyone noticed the leading coach is always a different temperature to the two trailing?

My theory is that the leading coach is synced with the drivers cab.

Can be a benefit or a nightmare

 

[tpjm]

Has anyone noticed the leading coach is always a different temperature to the two trailing?

My theory is that the leading coach is synced with the drivers cab.

Can be a benefit or a nightmare

Cab and saloon HVAC are completely independent.

 

[Bayum]

Why lock the middle coach out of use? If passengers find it too hot they can move to another. I have always been happy to sit in coaches without air con.

Depends how warm it was… It’s pretty much a greenhouse on wheels with no circulating air. Add passengers to the mix and you can very quickly get a situation with unwell passengers. Towards the end of last year, I went to the staffroom to cook dinner and make a protein shake for the gym and it was unbearable after two minutes because of the heat. Palpitations, sweat literally dripping from anywhere and everywhere, pounding headache.

 

[Neptune]

Wait.... Underfloor heating? Do other trains have that?

Class 720’s have this feature aso.

 

[CAF397]

Was at ManPicc yesterday and noted that the coupe of 185s had the air con system running full bore on the platforms making quite a racket. Not sure I've noticed that before.

If it was below the carriage it was most probably the radiators. On a hot day they work extra hard keeping the cooling system for the engines cool. The HVAC is on the roof and isn't normally loud.

 

[greyman42]

Depends how warm it was… It’s pretty much a greenhouse on wheels with no circulating air. Add passengers to the mix and you can very quickly get a situation with unwell passengers.

Then they can move to another coach if it is to hot for them.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Was at ManPicc yesterday and noted that the coupe of 185s had the air con system running full bore on the platforms making quite a racket. Not sure I've noticed that before.



Wait.... Underfloor heating? Do other trains have that?

701s will have it

 

[Bevan Price]

Sliding windows with air dams redirect the air towards the passengers sitting near them. Hoppers don't.

In reality personal vents are probably the best way as they can be pointed at the individual. But very few trains have them - only some Networker EMUs.

The problem with hopper windows is that they have only two settings - fully closed or fully open. Sliding windows can be adjusted to give variable degrees of ventilation, dependent on needs on the day. Many buses have the same problem as trains.

 

[apinnard]

The 755/4 I was on yesterday from Peterborough was very toasty, but not unbearably. A heavily pregnant lady actually asked the guard if he could open the sliding emergency window whilst the train was in motion!

 

[driverd]

As someone who has years of experience using 185s, I can safely say failing air con is not a new issue at all. They're probably second behind the 158s if I'm honest. It's never aided by traincrew insisting on leaving saloon end doors open to try and circulate air across carriages, which simply makes the aircon on the neighbouring vehicle work even harder to minimal effect on the next carriage.

I'd also add they're about as unpleasant as a train can get when the aircon does fail. Above you is the beating sun, below you an extremely warm engine, in the middle are some very sweaty passengers.

Conversely, I've yet to see an aircon unit fail on a 195.

I think, ultimately, you're asking a lot for a diesel engine to drive an aircon unit of the size required. EMUs seem to have issues far less often, I suspect due to the readily available, consistent supply of electricity.

 

[Tracked]

Wait.... Underfloor heating? Do other trains have that?

180s, but not intentionally?

Did Chesterfield to Bristol on a HST July 2018 where the aircon had failed in my carriage, Voyager on the journey back was absolutely rammed due to a thunderstorm taking out the signalling centre at York, so I was stuck in the vestibule with a few dozen others and no aircon (and the toilet ) from Birmingham to Chesterfield via the Derby diversion.

Can't remember ever having had an issue with aircon on a 185, despite getting them on the way to/from work for a few years before this pandemic thing happened, it's usually TPE's overlong announcements that get my blood boiling

 

[ic31420]

If it was below the carriage it was most probably the radiators. On a hot day they work extra hard keeping the cooling system for the engines cool. The HVAC is on the roof and isn't normally loud.

Seemed to be coming from the roof. Probably not helped by the trainshed roof and the fact I don't usually encounter them in covered stations.

 

[Llama]

Are you sure it's actual underfloor heating on 195s and not the coolant pipes that run along the lower side of the saloons. A little bird on Newton on the Heath told me that those pipes had to be drained very soon after entering service due to coolant leaks, and the associated coolant pumps isolated to stop them running 'dry' (hence all the 'HVAC CB' faults on the TCMS and circuit breakers taped open)...

And yes the air con is weedy on 195s as it seems it has been modified to only cool by a maximum of ~7°C compared to ambient temperature. The temperature sensors are not the most reliable - I've had two coupled 195s in multi with one unit reading external temperatures more than 10°C apart, one was 'cooling' from what it thought was 35°C down to 28°C in the saloon, and yes it was that that warm in that unit, perfectly fine in the other one which was 21°C inside, actual outside temp was about 25°C. Traincrew have no way of altering the temperature of the saloon aircon on 195/331 units.

Plus if a 195 is left berthed but running without a drivers key in for 15 minutes or more it'll go into 'sleep mode' which knocks off the air conditioning throughout the unit - all very sensible but then the air conditioning needs to be manually switched on again otherwise it'll just be on 'vent' - that little detail is lost on a lot of drivers. The same happens if a unit has been put into 'ECS' mode - A/C then needs manually switching on. The 195 training course never mentioned stuff like this.

 

[MattRat]

Are you sure it's actual underfloor heating on 195s and not the coolant pipes that run along the lower side of the saloons. A little bird on Newton on the Heath told me that those pipes had to be drained very soon after entering service due to coolant leaks, and the associated coolant pumps isolated to stop them running 'dry' (hence all the 'HVAC CB' faults on the TCMS and circuit breakers taped open)...

.......

Plus if a 195 is left berthed but running without a drivers key in for 15 minutes or more it'll go into 'sleep mode' which knocks off the air conditioning throughout the unit - all very sensible but then the air conditioning needs to be manually switched on again otherwise it'll just be on 'vent' - that little detail is lost on a lot of drivers. The same happens if a unit has been put into 'ECS' mode - A/C then needs manually switching on. The 195 training course never mentioned stuff like this.

This just sounds like an overly complicated system that was obviously going to cause problems.