Class 185 a good train?

[387star]

I was wondering, never having travelled on them, what the general consensus is on the 185

I realise they are chronically overcrowded and they couldn't have more coaches inserted for reasons I fail to remember..

Recognising that problem which also plagues the voyagers I'd rather talk about the train itself

I remember when they came out there was a lot of praise about all the tables and window seat alignment... Am I correct in thinking they have an abnormally high number of tables? Perhaps this is a regret given how busy I understand they are!

How noisy are they?
Has the interior lasted well?
Are the automated announcements excessive?
Is first class adequate and in the right area?
Do they have a guards compartment ala south west trains?
Does the door alignment cause draughts?
How would you improve the train?
Are they better than the 158?

Thanks- believe they are soon to be ten years old

 

[D365]

I realise they are chronically overcrowded and they couldn't have more coaches inserted for reasons I fail to remember.

Money - or lack of. They also had cut five units from the order.

Are they better than the 158?

Far superior to the Sprinters which I have used. Not sure if on par with a Turbostar or Voyager; I've used all these different diesels in travelling through Sheffield, don't know what else to say really.

 

[185143]

I have VERY mixed opinions about them, most of which come from my strong dissatisfaction of First TransPennine Express I think.

Which is a shame as I took one to Edinburgh and back on a Sunday back in February, as well as a trip to Middlesbrough and they were both fantastic! Some of the best journeys I've made this year.

At the same time, some of the worst journeys I've had this year have also been on 185s! Standing on a crush loaded 185 York-Manchester next to a leaking toilet? No thanks! Basically what I'm saying is that they have the potential to be very good, but are hugely unsuitable for the routes they are used on!

I wonder why that reminds me of vomiters..... Could be the engines.....

 

[ainsworth74]

How noisy are they?

No more noisy than any other DMU (and they don't seem to suffer with endemic rattles like a lot of DMUs do) and if you get a coach with an engine turned off (as part of their eco-mode) then they're quieter than most loco hauled coaches!

Has the interior lasted well?

On the whole yes but the seats are definetly starting to show wear and tear and could do with reupholstering. Hopefully the next TPE franchise will give them a refurbishment.

Are the automated announcements excessive?

No they only announce the usual sort of things like calling points, next station, CCTV and so on. Some consider even that excessive but it doesn't bother me.

Is first class adequate and in the right area?

Yes and it is really in the only place it could go if you want to fit in that much first class on the train and have it in one place.

Do they have a guards compartment ala south west trains?

No that's what the back cab is for

Does the door alignment cause draughts?

Probably but I've been on them in the depths of winter with snow flying about and have never really noticed any problems with draughts.

How would you improve the train?

Extra coach and a little more padding on the base of standard class seats (but that's a complaint true of most modern seats).

Are they better than the 158?

They feel like a modern equivalent of the 158 to me so I'm not sure they're any better or worse. For the routes they're on I'd say they are, on the whole, better.

 

[scotsman]

I enjoyed working them.

The First class is definitely the right area, although I feel the omission of a disabled seating space in it was a bad move. I'd maybe have had the bike area where the disabled seating is and vice versa. The catering staff have a nice space - lots of storage, as well as cupboard with a plug socket inside - useful to charge phones on the move.

They can be a little bit noisy because of the exhausts not being mounted on the carriage exterior - the exhaust spaces also occupy about four seating spaces.

The interior is good, but looks a bit dated - the pastel pinks and greens of First.

The guards don't have a space - they have the cab to use instead.

I'm not aware of draughts.

Improvements? Hmm, wifi would be good. USB sockets at all seats - don't any train could really support plug sockets for every single seat.

 

[thenorthern]

Overall I would say they are nothing special but not bad trains. The interior isn't cramped like on Pendolinos or Voyagers although the interior does seem smaller than on Class 153s.

The performance is better than a Class 158 as they have a higher top speed and the engines aren't too noisy.

The seats are rather uncomfortable although I think that has allowed them to last longer as there are no springs in them.

 

[ash39]

Notwithstanding the issues you have already identified, they are good trains.

Luggage storage is a problem for the Manchester Airport trains. Not much space for larger suitcases or bikes.

First class is small but probably about right for demand. The split of standard class and position of the disabled toilet isn't ideal but hard to see how this could be avoided whilst maintaining a 3-car formation.

Nice big windows which make them feel bigger than they are.

I'd say they still feel fairly fresh and modern, moreso than a 175, 180 or 220/221 for instance, all of which are only half a decade or so older.

They could have been excellent as 4 or 5 car units, or a larger fleet of 3-car units.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

How noisy are they?
Has the interior lasted well?
Are the automated announcements excessive?
Is first class adequate and in the right area?
Do they have a guards compartment ala south west trains?
Does the door alignment cause draughts?
How would you improve the train?
Are they better than the 158?

I found them to be relatively quiet for a DMU, and my ears aren't very bad either, for I can hear the differences in similar sounds, so I can say that although they are somewhat noisier than other trains, for a DMU they seemed far quieter.

From the times I've been on them the interior seems fine, though I haven't traveled on them for very long. They do look new, and they do definitely seem like up to date carriages from my experience, and I've been on the Class 144 in the same day too, so it seemed the most up-to-date.

The automated announcements didn't seem very excessive to me, cause they simply announced their station and their next stop. It didn't cover extensive things such as safety information, it just got down to business and said where the train is going and where it's stopping at on the way.

Never been in First Class, so I cannot say for sure if it's worth the money. I've heard the seats are comfortable and the service is good, but take it with a pinch of salt no matter what everyone says, cause it all depends on your exprience. I believe it is in the centre of coach A/C I don't know for sure, but I'm don't think there's such thing as a right area for first class compartments unless you want them to not be in the middle of standard class coaches.

Guards normally sit at the back of the train I believe, so if you wish to find the guard you will find them at the rear cab, which to my understanding is typical of trains of it's design; small length double-door units. I've only ever seen long express passenger trains with single doors on each end of the coach have a guard compartment.

I don't know how to answer the question about door alignments, cause if there is a draft I would put it down to windows being open or a gap in the doors, but really I don't know how to answer that question I'm afraid.

The train could most certainly be a bit longer, as I feel three cars isn't entirely suitable for services like Scotland to Manchester where I was once forced to sit on the floor (wasn't bad as I was only going from Preston to Wigan). I think for rush hour in particular the trains could be something like four, five, six or seven cars long, but it should depend on route usage.

As a train and as personal preference, the 185 is slightly better than the 158, but both seem to do their job of carrying passengers over long distant regional journeys between major cities, though for capacity reasons and the need for new stock, the Class 185 seems more fit for purpose when handling capacity increases and network coverage, but that's only cause it's somewhat new, compared to a thirty year old two-car 158.

Generally, I think they're brilliant units. They do the job well, the design is very nice, the interior is good, and it's rides are very quiet and smooth compared to other DMUs, and this makes it something I would ride on. I hope this has helped.

 

[WatcherZero]

Solid, reliable, but rather heavy.

Probably the most comfortable DMU used for a commuter service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On the rare occasions I'm on one long enough to bother looking for a seat rather than standing in the vestibule, I find the seats firm but fairly comfortable for a modern train (though not quite as good as the TPE 170s which don't run North TPE anymore). As already mentioned they're too short and there's too few of them, I do hope that the longer-term aim is for 6x23m fixed formation EMUs on North TPE fasts, it really needs it.
A slight gripe about the layout is the lack of tip-up seats in the vestibules, and door buttons being only on one side of each door (again, the 170s were better for this) as there always seems to be some idiot stood in front of the buttons who isn't getting off!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would the design (but with different engines) have been suitable for Waterloo-Exeter?

 

[superalbs]

Would the design (but with different engines) have been suitable for Waterloo-Exeter?

I suggested that once. They are Desiros after all, which would help with maintenence.

 

[The Ham]

Would the design (but with different engines) have been suitable for Waterloo-Exeter?

The short answer is no, but mostly due to the reduction in the number of seats.

 

[306024]

Solid, reliable, but rather heavy.

Probably the most comfortable DMU used for a commuter service.

Yep that sums it up. And being solid and reliable should mean they are around for many years to come. Best UK DMU to travel on in my experience, although of course that's just personal opinion. Being a regular class 360 traveller they remind me of home

A slight gripe about the layout is the ...... door buttons being only on one side of each door ...... as there always seems to be some idiot stood in front of the buttons who isn't getting off!

I find saying 'excuse me please' is usually sufficient, and cheaper than doubling the number of door controls that would require maintenance

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Class 185, although somewhat on the heavy side, track maintenance-wise, are ideal for the cross-Pennine routes which are a staple diet for them.

Speaking on behalf of my good lady wife and myself, both in our 70's, the First Class accommodation is good.

 

[northwichcat]

On the whole yes but the seats are definetly starting to show wear and tear and could do with reupholstering. Hopefully the next TPE franchise will give them a refurbishment.

They were replaced around 4 years ago (with seat covers pretty much identical to the originals) so they only seem to last 5 years of intensive use.

LM`s 350/1s still have their original seat covers and some of the seats look like they`ve done 20 years service.

 

[ianhr]

Solid, reliable, but rather heavy.

Probably the most comfortable DMU used for a commuter service.

Yes, I think this understates the point many people are making. Basically a good train, or better than 150s, 153s & 156s, but unfit for purpose on busy regional and intercity routes.

It is essentially only a 2 car suburban unit as far as standard class is concerned after taking into account first class and disabled access etc.

The high power rating is not normally used by TPE as they try to operate them for fuel economy, coasting along to slack timings at least on TPE North.

They would be good for routes like Manchester-Buxton or the Calder Valley line but even then might be overcrowded at peak times unless run in multiple.

My view is that they should convert the first class saloon to standard and redeploy them as soon as alternative stock can be found for TPE.

 

[northwichcat]

First class is small but probably about right for demand. The split of standard class and position of the disabled toilet isn't ideal but hard to see how this could be avoided whilst maintaining a 3-car formation.

SWT used to have a small FC section at both ends of 170s so first was split opposed to standard. That could have been an alternative for the Desiros.

Nice big windows which make them feel bigger than they are.

I'm pretty sure the pillars are bigger than on the 158s they replaced.

The performance is better than a Class 158 as they have a higher top speed and the engines aren't too noisy.

On Hope Valley and Selby-Hull they have to run at a lower speed than 158s due to being heavier.

The seats are rather uncomfortable although I think that has allowed them to last longer as there are no springs in them.

The seats were worse when they were new. Having a lot of people sit on them seems to have made them softer.

No more noisy than any other DMU (and they don't seem to suffer with endemic rattles like a lot of DMUs do) and if you get a coach with an engine turned off (as part of their eco-mode) then they're quieter than most loco hauled coaches!

Having air conditioned opposed to having to open windows to cool down the train helps a lot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, I think this understates the point many people are making. Basically a good train, or better than 150s, 153s & 156s, but unfit for purpose on busy regional and intercity routes.

It is essentially only a 2 car suburban unit as far as standard class is concerned after taking into account first class and disabled access etc.

I certainly don't agree with WatcherZero's definition of class 185 operated services being commuter services. Finding a seat on a TPE service can be difficult at any time of day and not just Monday to Friday. Class 185 operated services aren't anymore commuter like then services operated by 175s, 180s and 22xs especially now the Blackpool to Manchester Airport services are mainly operated by 156s.

 

[thealexweb]

I generally like them. I used them for many years travelling between Edinburgh and Bolton. Now it seems they hardly come near Bolton at all compared to before the December 2013 timetable change.

 

[ainsworth74]

SWT used to have a small FC section at both ends of 170s so first was split opposed to standard. That could have been an alternative for the Desiros.

You would then need to move the disabled toilet somewhere else within the train plus would you be able to fit as much first class seating in the space between the cabs and the doors as you can in the middle of the space between the doors? I'm not sure you could. Also remember that the first class compartment also includes a space to store the trolley and cupboards for the crew as well so that would need to be moved somewhere else on the train.

The layout is far from ideal but I'm not sure there is a better option.

On Hope Valley and Selby-Hull they have to run at a lower speed than 158s due to being heavier.

Not sure about the Hope Valley but on Selby-Hull it hasn't affected journey times so whilst they might run at a lower speed the impact of that has been nil.

Having air conditioned opposed to having to open windows to cool down the train helps a lot.

Good point but I still think they're pretty quiet compared to most stock when the engines are off

 

[WestRiding]

How noisy are they? Not too noisy. Sound very powerful in tunnels.
Has the interior lasted well? Seem to be looking a little tired now.
Are the automated announcements excessive? VERY! Especially when the conductor then decides he likes the sound of his own voice too!
Is first class adequate and in the right area? Not needed, the trains are too short, and it takes up too much room.
Do they have a guards compartment ala south west trains?
Does the door alignment cause draughts? Not really.
How would you improve the train? More coaches.
Are they better than the 158? Of course.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They were replaced around 4 years ago (with seat covers pretty much identical to the originals) so they only seem to last 5 years of intensive use.

LM`s 350/1s still have their original seat covers and some of the seats look like they`ve done 20 years service.

That replacement has clearly made a difference, even though as the new was identical to the old it isn't obvious anything's been done. Compared with the 333s (used equally intensively albeit on different types of services) they've weathered pretty well. The 333s are now in dire need of a refresh based on the amount of grease/hair product residue ingrained into the upper areas of the seat backs! They're now looking as tired as the 308s they replaced!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would the design (but with different engines) have been suitable for Waterloo-Exeter?

Why would different engines be required? Okay, the hill climbing ability wouldn't be needed as much, but the extra power does negate some of the speed restrictions due to the weight (as seen on Selby to Hull), and would be equally advantageous on the SWML fasts. The bigger issue is...:

The short answer is no, but mostly due to the reduction in the number of seats.

 

[507 001]

I like them. Although I do have a couple of gripes.....

The armrests are too high in standard class
The PIS system has one of the most irritating voices ever.

Other than that, they're fast, relatively comfy and they're quieter than voyagers. They also seem to be pretty well screwed together.

The power output of the things is impressive too, a metrolink M5000 can out accelerate most things up miles platting, 185s just sort of sod off though!

 

[yorksrob]

Yes. Atmosphere a bit sterile, compared to the 158's, seats a bit hard, but generally very good trains to travel on.

Very good leg room, even in airline seats, which goes a long way for longer distance services!

 

[387star]

The table window seat alignment seems especially good as almost all new trains fail on this

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes. Atmosphere a bit sterile, compared to the 158's, seats a bit hard, but generally very good trains to travel on.

Very good leg room, even in airline seats, which goes a long way for longer distance services!

Very much then like the interiors of German cars such as VW or BMW, putting suitability for transpennine services aside, the 158 also scores over the 185 with its end door configuration giving its saloon areas a more long distance feel although to me there is a sense of a more rigid structure when traveling on a 185 as opposed to a 158, indeed I have the same impression of rigidity also when onboard a 156.

 

[387star]

A pretty well liked train then

The desiros are excellent at,south west trains

 

[ainsworth74]

A pretty well liked train then

The desiros are excellent at,south west trains

The Desiro family is fairly excellent full stop! I was on a couple AGA of 360s the other day and that was also a very impressive.

But the 185s are pretty well liked as, in my opinion, the only significant failings are their shortness which is the fault of those that ordered them (First) and then prevented additional orders (DfT) rather than the units themselves.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Desiro family is fairly excellent full stop!

But the 185s are pretty well liked as, in my opinion, the only significant failings are their shortness which is the fault of those that ordered them (First) and then prevented additional orders (DfT) rather than the units themselves.

They certainly seem less rattly than the 170s (I personally preferred the 170s for other reasons on shorter trips) and much like the SWT Desiros, the build quality is apparent now that they've been pounding some of our busiest routes for over a decade... Besides being too short and too few, unit end gangways would've been ideal from a passenger point of view but as I don't have to drive the things it's easy for me to say!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They have the same engines as 180s and Voyagers, so very similar performance.
Good at hill-climbing and comfortable but I find the layout rather messy - not as many good seats as you expect.
I personally think the 175/180 layout and seats are better.
If you travel in both 350s (not /2s) and 185s, while there are many similarities, you soon realise the 350s are much quieter and more refined.