Class 175s to GWR

[43096]

Costs money. ROSCOs will cut costs to the bone. It would be interesting to know what requirements are placed upon them regarding storage and subsequent suitability for passenger service. Of course as stock becomes ever more 'computer-complex' and thus delicate, longer-term storage becomes correspondingly problematic. In days of yore, if you stored, say, a 4SUB, it would still work years later!

This is the problem with the whole “it’s the leasing company’s problem” view. Reality is this all ends up affecting the end-user, as we’ve seen in several cases not least GWR. The 379s haven’t exactly been plain sailing either.

Part of the problem is that there is effectively only one customer for the trains - and it's a short-sighted dysfunctional Government department. Against that background, why would the ROSCOs spend more on the condition of off-lease stock? It's not like the European leasing market for, say, locomotives where the leasing companies have to keep stock in good order because if they don't they won't be getting leases off the numerous operators. It's a much bigger market with standard designs of equipment and multiple ROSCOs (Akiem, Alpha, Beacon, ELL, Railpool etc etc) offering the same equipment types.

 

[VP185]

I hear rumblings that some 175's have already been fitted with illuminated AWS sunflowers over the weekend.

They’ve got surplus Cl.150 ones fitted. I don’t know whether they are old glow in the dark sunflowers or new illuminated ones.

The previous ones fitted to the 175 fleet were glow in the dark, just that the glow only lasted about 5 minutes!

 

[henryb]

Lots of complaints today over the impact of the lack of trains on GWR network, buses laid on across the Devon metro from Dawlish, Barnstaple and okehampton because no space on trains

 

[RPI]

With the benefit of hindsight just when were the AWS "sunflowers" going to be replaced ? Did it really need a GWR driver to report them ? Surely the Rosco have qualified staff to check their assets over periodically then feed up the command chain whether stuff needs attention.

A load have now been retrofitted already.

 

[Dan G]

Internally, the 175 is a great train. Spacious, airy, good seat alignment, and good suspension and comfort, but it's traction mechanics are the stuff of an engineers nightmare, especially when said engineer realises the services GWR are asking them to operate. Mechanically, they're absolute dogs. Underpowered, not enough tractive effort to pull the skin off a rice pudding, a mismatched engine/transmission combo, needing their guts absolutely ragged out on tough climbs, diminuative cooler groups, fire prone, and unsuited to anything but operating on limited stop, long distance cruising on flat ground in cold weather. Oh and they can't pull full power unless the driver hits to boost button and shutsdown half the onboard services. They should have gone to an appropriate service like Northerns Scarborough to Sheffield, Hull to Doncaster, and Bridlington to York services supplementing the 170's and replacing 158's, 155's and 150's where the would spend their time on flat ground in the cooler north of England able to spend like cruising.

Class 175s have the same transmission as the Class 165/166/168/170, but a more powerful prime mover. I'm not aware of the TTs/Turbostars having performance issues, so your assertions seem difficult to believe.

 

[REVUpminster]

115 completed it's diagram almost on time delayed waiting to access it's platform at Exeter. Need to keep this train on this diagram.

It had to use platform 1 at Newton Abbot to pass 1Z92 (cancelled 1V92 at Plymouth, Penzance-Birmingham 9 cars 5+4) in platform 3 where it resumed passenger service. Watched it follow 115 through Dawlish on it's way to Bristol

 

[Ytfc117]

I should know the answer to that but admittedly I can't recall! My gut is they do, as I do think all GWR traction has luminous sunflowers nowadays, hence the union concerns. I'll confirm next time I ge

Fair point that, suppose driving around a very well lit depot is slightly different to the mainline at high speeds!

Do the 57s have light up 'sunflowers'? They are pretty much only driven in the dark so one would like to hope they do.

Yes the 57/3 and 57/6s have backlit AWS Sunflowers

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 05:32 ==

769s are still in store that could go to Reading to let turbos come west. I don't know where they are stored.

GWR have complained about the storage at Ely, which climate wise is pretty benign. GWR replaced that with storage at Laira and sea air, some units for over 18 months. They have D stock and one 230. Perhaps after December GWR will be in the scrap metal business.

Can’t call the Fens benign when it comes to open air storage ‍*Face Palm*

 

[REVUpminster]

115 doing same as yesterday. coupled with 011 from Laira to Exeter then 011 did the training/ mileage run. Has had a few passenger runs in the past.

 

[Towers]

Class 175s have the same transmission as the Class 165/166/168/170, but a more powerful prime mover. I'm not aware of the TTs/Turbostars having performance issues, so your assertions seem difficult to believe.

Gets dictionary - ah, you mean the “engine”!

 

[Snow1964]

Class 175s have the same transmission as the Class 165/166/168/170, but a more powerful prime mover. I'm not aware of the TTs/Turbostars having performance issues, so your assertions seem difficult to believe.

I don't think that is correct
165s have 12.2 litre Perkins engines,
175s have 14 litre Cummins engines,

165s have Voith T211 rz transmissions.
175s have Voith T211 re3 transmissions

The rz versions could handle 270-469 HP and were specifically for DMUs as had high capacity hydrodynamic pump to avoid overheating. The re3 was a standard version limited to 429 HP, it can be fitted with a retarder

 

[Wyrleybart]

That surely depends entirely on the nature of the issue. People coming to something new will react differently to it from people who have been used to somethings foibles over 20 years. Doesn’t make either position necessarily “right”.

Not sure I agree. Every year on public roads we take our vehicles for an MOT test after three years old. The MOT inspectors have checklists of stuff and foibles wouldn't be included.

Perhaps there need to be GBR cab exams every year

I don't think that is correct
165s have 12.2 litre Perkins engines,
175s have 14 litre Cummins engines,

165s have Voith T211 rz transmissions.
175s have Voith T211 re3 transmissions

The rz versions could handle 270-469 HP and were specifically for DMUs as had high capacity hydrodynamic pump to avoid overheating. The re3 was a standard version limited to 429 HP, it can be fitted with a retarder

Class 175s have the same transmission as the Class 165/166/168/170, but a more powerful prime mover. I'm not aware of the TTs/Turbostars having performance issues, so your assertions seem difficult to believe.

I am not techie but AIUI class 170s and the "spin off" 168s were designed to cruise at 100mph as were the 175s, so the transmission was set up for this. However I believe the stop-start nature of some services might have an improved performance from a lower geared unit - dependent on power unit. I guess a 175 powered by a Cummins N14 can give an overall faster performance than a Cummins NT855 under a 150 or 158and the Perkins 2006 fitted to 166s.

As a matter of interest has a 166 ever run in service all the way to Penzance ?

 

[CR165022]

As a matter of interest has a 166 ever run in service all the way to Penzance ?

They're not cleared past Plymouth.

 

[GBM]

115 doing same as yesterday. coupled with 011 from Laira to Exeter then 011 did the training/ mileage run. Has had a few passenger runs in the past.

Oh. 115 seems to be struggling?
2E11 1050 Penzance to Exeter St Davids
Lost time leaving Truro. Made up a bit on arrival at Plymouth.
Lost time between Hemerdon and now sat at Totnes for currently 12 minutes.
1A86 and 1S53 stuck behind it, awaiting Totnes.

 

[Apedlar12]

Oh. 115 seems to be struggling?
2E11 1050 Penzance to Exeter St Davids
Lost time leaving Truro. Made up a bit on arrival at Plymouth.
Lost time between Hemerdon and now sat at Totnes for currently 12 minutes.
1A86 and 1S53 stuck behind it, awaiting Totnes.

Ended up arriving into Exeter 42L.

 

[tfw756rider]

I am not techie but AIUI class 170s and the "spin off" 168s

The first 168s came before the first 170s, just that the first 168s had the Networker-looking cab specified. Other than that, 168/170/171 are all pretty much each other (the main difference being in the coupler configuration/type, but this can be changed, and there have indeed been some 170-168, 170-171 and 170-171-170 conversions).

were designed to cruise at 100mph as were the 175s, so the transmission was set up for this.

Everything from 75mph Pacers/Sprinters/Turbos to 90mph 158s/Turbos to 100mph 168s/170s/171s and 175s have the same basic Voith 2-stage hydraulic transmissions (albeit different variants), but with different final drive ratios to get the different top speeds, which can also affect acceleration.

 

[craigybagel]

Class 175s have the same transmission as the Class 165/166/168/170, but a more powerful prime mover. I'm not aware of the TTs/Turbostars having performance issues, so your assertions seem difficult to believe.

As someone who spent 10 years working them, mostly on a line so steeply graded BR built a dedicated fleet of 158s with more powerful engines to cope, take it from me that it's almost entirely nonsense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 16:05 ==

Always good to hear an experienced drivers recollections of a class that they were once very familiar with but at a different operator, thanks.

I have Tech riden, is riden even a word ? numerous 175`s within the cab when dark and never noticed the issue with the sunflower and also the many different drivers never remarked about it either so it came as a complete surprise to me that there is/was an issue.

So going from one extreme to another when they solve the sunflower issue during darkness and drivers are then happy to operate them when dark we then come to the bright door interlock lights in the cab which we did have a number of complainants about and we then carried out a lens modification programme but can`t remember if we completed the fleet due to supply issues ?

It probably doesn't help as well that I would assume any inspections of the units, either by GWR management or the ASLEF reps from there, would have taken place in daylight. Issues like this won't be obvious until you're actually driving in darkness.

My recollection was most units had the bright blue light fixed through liberal application of a black marker!

When are GWR going to concede defeat woth the 175's. They're clapped out rotting old bangers like all UK Coradia 1000's

The problem is CAF/TfW completely screwed up their maintenance in their later years and were sent off lease almost immediately after that. Combine that with their cold storage for almost 2 years and it’s no surprise GWR are experiencing so many difficulties with the fleet, which otherwise ended up fairly reliable during their time in Wales. The fault-free running exercise really should have started before they were introduced by GWR!

Its a shame GWR are having such major problems with the 175s. They were very nice units internally but ATW and then TFW had no end of issues with them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 20:19 ==


So pretty much like when TFW had to take them out of service and there was an abundance of Sprinters covering.

Lets hope this can be sorted soon.

I feel like it's time for me to make my biannual reminder that contrary to popular belief, they were actually very reliable units at ATW. Unlike the 180s, Alsthom at Chester were able to get on top of things and do a pretty decent job. It proves it can be done.

They only had major problems in their final years, when the plans were being put in place for their replacement. 2 years in a field afterwards probably didn't help much either.

I think you'd struggle to find many drivers or guards on the mainline side of TfW who wouldn't love to see them back tomorrow - if their circa 2020 reliability could be achieved again.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Lost time in Cornwall due to signalling failure. Unsolicited brake application between Plymouth and Ivybridge. Don’t know what happened at Totnes.

 

[brad465]

Lost time in Cornwall due to signalling failure. Unsolicited brake application between Plymouth and Ivybridge. Don’t know what happened at Totnes.

Does this mean the train did the brake application on its own, or the driver initiated it for no obvious reason (if you're allowed to disclose)?

 

[D6130]

Does this mean the train did the brake application on its own, or the driver initiated it for no obvious reason (if you're allowed to disclose)?

It means that it was not initiated by the driver. Could have been any one of a number of causes....including passcom operated - either accidentally or deliberately - defective AWS (Automatic Warning System) or TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System), or one of those systems operating due to driver error, a circuit breaker tripping or a door locking detection defect.

 

[REVUpminster]

115 seems to be on time for it's final run

 

[XFeed]

My recollection was most units had the bright blue light fixed through liberal application of a black marker!l

Absolutely correct that door interlock blue lights were blacked out or black insulation tape applied partially obscuring each of the the lens but this situation would have only lasted for a maximum of 15000 miles, exam mileage, as the black marker ink was always removed from the lens during exams and ATW/TfW billed for the time as it was classed as train crew vandalism. Once the unit was back in service then back for its next exam it was rinse and repeat and the TOC getting billed again
Picture attached of door interlock blue lens blacked out, it should at least as bright as the door obstacle close and lock button.

I feel like it's time for me to make my biannual reminder that contrary to popular belief, they were actually very reliable units at ATW. Unlike the 180s, Alsthom at Chester were able to get on top of things and do a pretty decent job. It proves it can be done.

They only had major problems in their final years, when the plans were being put in place for their replacement. 2 years in a field afterwards probably didn't help much either.

I think you'd struggle to find many drivers or guards on the mainline side of TfW who wouldn't love to see them back tomorrow - if their circa 2020 reliability could be achieved again.

I agree good availability and reliability should be able to achieved again.

 

[BillStampy]

115 seems to be on time for it's final run

You've cursed it. Now stood still at Hemerdon.

EDIT: 21:49 - appears to be on the move again.

 

[XFeed]

I don't think that is correct
165s have 12.2 litre Perkins engines,
175s have 14 litre Cummins engines,

165s have Voith T211 rz transmissions.
175s have Voith T211 re3 transmissions

The rz versions could handle 270-469 HP and were specifically for DMUs as had high capacity hydrodynamic pump to avoid overheating. The re3 was a standard version limited to 429 HP, it can be fitted with a retarder

Attached part of the spec sheet from 2000 during delivery with document showing Firstgroup as customer.

 

[craigybagel]

I am not techie but AIUI class 170s and the "spin off" 168s were designed to cruise at 100mph as were the 175s, so the transmission was set up for this. However I believe the stop-start nature of some services might have an improved performance from a lower geared unit - dependent on power unit. I guess a 175 powered by a Cummins N14 can give an overall faster performance than a Cummins NT855 under a 150 or 158and the Perkins 2006 fitted to 166s.

In my experience, a 175 will out accelerate pretty much any sprinter. They also have much better brakes even with the dynamic brakes isolated, so in most scenarios they'll outperform a sprinter, at least from start to stop. Dwell times on platforms aren't great in comparison to a 150 of course (but still better than a 158).

Absolutely correct that door interlock blue lights were blacked out or black insulation tape applied partially obscuring each of the the lens this situation would have only lasted for a maximum of 15000 miles, exam mileage, as the black marker ink was always removed from the lens during exams and ATW/TfW billed for the time as it was classed as train crew vandalism. Once the unit was back in service then back for its next exam it was rinse and repeat and the TOC getting billed again
Picture attached of door interlock blue lens blacked out, it should at least as bright as the door obstacle close and lock button.

You learn something new every day, I never knew those buttons had to be cleaned by Alsthom on service!

 

[XFeed]

It means that it was not initiated by the driver. Could have been any one of a number of causes....including passcom operated - either accidentally or deliberately - defective AWS (Automatic Warning System) or TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System), or one of those systems operating due to driver error, a circuit breaker tripping or a door locking detection defect.

Pretty good selection of causes plus a couple of others, gearbox detected out of correct position, green access/egress handle operated , low air issues too.
Pass comms operated in a toilet will not initiate a brake application only those in vestibule will.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 22:20 ==

In my experience, a 175 will out accelerate pretty much any sprinter. They also have much better brakes even with the dynamic brakes isolated, so in most scenarios they'll outperform a sprinter, at least from start to stop. Dwell times on platforms aren't great in comparison to a 150 of course (but still better than a 158).

You learn something new every day, I never knew those buttons had to be cleaned by Alsthom on service!

We had to generate extra revenue from somewhere

 

[REVUpminster]

115 terminating Newton Abbot returning to Plymouth as 5P28. Connection missed. These trains????

So the mugs on the train will probably get 2E38 ex Paignton and get to Exeter at 2314. Those who wanted Taunton/Weston; what happens to them? Are they taxied?

 

[XFeed]

115 terminating Newton Abbot returning to Plymouth as 5P28. Connection missed. These trains????

Any indication of the reason for terminating ?

 

[CR165022]

Any indication of the reason for terminating ?

GWR Journey Check states fault on the train

 

[XFeed]

GWR Journey Check states fault on the train

Thanks for the reply

 

[Ashley Hill]

You've cursed it. Now stood still at Hemerdon.

EDIT: 21:49 - appears to be on the move again.

Another unsolicited brake application followed by a fault with the F&R selector.