Class 175s to GWR

[co-tr-paul]

Let's just say the interior of 010 at Long Rock for training has growth inside it....
Not even been started yet. Many behind the scenes procedures to sort first.

 

[3RDGEN]

They might get mouldy if they have a leak but that's not inherent.

With the 175/180 you may find it is inherent, Great Northern have had struggles with the 379 return to service from storage too so it's not a big surprise and GWR knew the 175/180 history. Some of the 180's spent time in storage at Oxley years ago and they did get runs to Crewe/Stafford to help keep them serviceable but that is an expensive business, not aware the 175's ever left Ely. Did they run the engines for a few hours every now and again just to cycle the systems and ventilate them?

 

[co-tr-paul]

Any air con stock will go damp and mouldy quickly without ventilation. It's a well known fact.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Probably a combination of the stock having being stored for so long and new traction for the crew who are still not that familiar with them.

I would plump for the latter. Don't forget that GWR traincrew have only been on these units for a few weeks / months and will not have had time to gain experience of the class 175 quirks. Quirks which all tractions have irrespective of a few months or 25 years old, and only learnt after instances and messroom banter. "look out for set 17 because the fufu valve is slow to respond" !!!

Cars don't mind being stored outside. They might get mouldy if they have a leak but that's not inherent. Their electronics are potted, connectors are designed to be waterproof etc. Why would a train fare worse?

We are talking about 25+ year old 175s which have already done a lifetime's work before being withdrawn by TfW. Don't forget the problems had getting the 175s TO Ely to go into store. Then the store period. Bringing them out Ely has been unbraked. You will notice a long flexible pipe strung from cab to cab between 175s. This is taking the brake from the leading barrier van to the trailing barrier van then to the rear loco.

Basically, TfW took their 175s to a "handback centre" Landore and Holyhead, but with visits to Central Rivers occasionally too, so that the units could be handed back to the Rosco in the designated state on the contract. The 175s then stored in thwe windy fields of Cambridgeshire, until the DfT finished prevaricating on their future. So the 175s are moving to a new area of the country to completely "virgin" traincrews and maintenance staff, to learn all their 25 year old foibles.

It really doesnt take a rocket scientist to predict the result.

 

[craigybagel]

I would plump for the latter. Don't forget that GWR traincrew have only been on these units for a few weeks / months and will not have had time to gain experience of the class 175 quirks. Quirks which all tractions have irrespective of a few months or 25 years old, and only learnt after instances and messroom banter. "look out for set 17 because the fufu valve is slow to respond" !!!

As someone who spent over a decade working 175s from both ends, I can confirm that they are indeed very quirky. There are so many bits of knowledge you pick up on them that can't be covered in a training course without it going on forever.

I have spent years defending them from unfair accusations of unreliability - and pretty much everyone at TfW who signed them misses them now, but I can't deny that they have a lot of foibles that may seem odd to people used to working other traction, in comparison with both older ex BR stock and the newer stuff of the last few years.

I can think of a few things on 175s that traincrew in the know can fix in seconds, but without that knowledge you'd be looking at delays and even cancellations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2026 ==

"look out for set 17 because the fufu valve is slow to respond" !!!

I did have a wry smile when a poster above mentioned that 002 was out in service. Known at TfW either as "The Haymaker" or "Damien II" (in homage to Damien I aka 158820, who's reputation for unusual faults stretches for decades), it was the unit that crashed into a trailer full of hay near Whitland and it has never been quite the same since!

 

[D365]

Their electronics are potted, connectors are designed to be waterproof etc. Why would a train fare worse?

Discrete electronic components might be potted, but computer circuit boards certainly are not. The bespoke nature of trains doesn't help, whereas an average road vehicle is, broadly speaking, productionised.

It’s apples and oranges.

 

[Snow1964]

Cars don't mind being stored outside. They might get mouldy if they have a leak but that's not inherent. Their electronics are potted, connectors are designed to be waterproof etc. Why would a train fare worse?

Any air con stock will go damp and mouldy quickly without ventilation. It's a well known fact.

Trains have a much bigger interior and unlike cars with big sloping windows front and rear, don't usually get parked in a way that lets sun in to warm them inside.

I suspect most people putting cars in longer term storage ensure it is dry inside, ventilated at intervals (but only on very dry days), even use pots of moisture absorbing crystals to keep it dry inside.

A good a/c system should be able to be powered up and put on full heat and drying. Park the vehicle like that and should not go mouldy inside. But just parking it without drying inside and poorly closing up so damp or rain can get in is asking for trouble.

 

[Robin Edwards]

I would plump for the latter. Don't forget that GWR traincrew have only been on these units for a few weeks / months and will not have had time to gain experience of the class 175 quirks. Quirks which all tractions have irrespective of a few months or 25 years old, and only learnt after instances and messroom banter. "look out for set 17 because the fufu valve is slow to respond" !!!

We are talking about 25+ year old 175s which have already done a lifetime's work before being withdrawn by TfW. Don't forget the problems had getting the 175s TO Ely to go into store. Then the store period. Bringing them out Ely has been unbraked. You will notice a long flexible pipe strung from cab to cab between 175s. This is taking the brake from the leading barrier van to the trailing barrier van then to the rear loco.

Basically, TfW took their 175s to a "handback centre" Landore and Holyhead, but with visits to Central Rivers occasionally too, so that the units could be handed back to the Rosco in the designated state on the contract. The 175s then stored in thwe windy fields of Cambridgeshire, until the DfT finished prevaricating on their future. So the 175s are moving to a new area of the country to completely "virgin" traincrews and maintenance staff, to learn all their 25 year old foibles.

It really doesnt take a rocket scientist to predict the result.

I would agree with the ease of predicting the 175 outcome here.

I'm interested in what folk think might be more efficient and better under a single GBR operation given that in 60s-80s, I don't recall stock standing idle for months/years when reallocated between depots / regions under the BR days? I might extend consideration to introduction of new stock - something that can seemingly now take longer than some classes existed in service during the 60s/70s

 

[BillStampy]

I think if the deal for the 175s was signed months sooner whilst the units were receiving handback work at Landore, the vast majority could've gone straight to the likes of Wolverton and Laira without picking up all the issues with long term cold storage.

Once the units have been used enough they'll likely settle in quickly. Take 175001 for example, that's been running on the daily pretty consistently for the past 2-3 weeks without any major issues, we just need more of them running when possible and enough crew have been trained to sustain a 2nd diagram.

 

[Anonymous10]

As someone who spent over a decade working 175s from both ends, I can confirm that they are indeed very quirky. There are so many bits of knowledge you pick up on them that can't be covered in a training course without it going on forever.

I have spent years defending them from unfair accusations of unreliability - and pretty much everyone at TfW who signed them misses them now, but I can't deny that they have a lot of foibles that may seem odd to people used to working other traction, in comparison with both older ex BR stock and the newer stuff of the last few years.

I can think of a few things on 175s that traincrew in the know can fix in seconds, but without that knowledge you'd be looking at delays and even cancellations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2026 ==


I did have a wry smile when a poster above mentioned that 002 was out in service. Known at TfW either as "The Haymaker" or "Damien II" (in homage to Damien I aka 158820, who's reputation for unusual faults stretches for decades), it was the unit that crashed into a trailer full of hay near Whitland and it has never been quite the same since!

Only near whitland

 

[Davester50]

Trains have a much bigger interior and unlike cars with big sloping windows front and rear, don't usually get parked in a way that lets sun in to warm them inside.

I suspect most people putting cars in longer term storage ensure it is dry inside, ventilated at intervals (but only on very dry days), even use pots of moisture absorbing crystals to keep it dry inside.

A good a/c system should be able to be powered up and put on full heat and drying. Park the vehicle like that and should not go mouldy inside. But just parking it without drying inside and poorly closing up so damp or rain can get in is asking for trouble.

Quite.
Planes fly off to the desert for storage often, as the conditions there are much better than a wet field in Eastern England.

Now where's a train sized deep storage mine that documents are sent off to for long term storage when you need one!

 

[Tetragon213]

Quite.
Planes fly off to the desert for storage often, as the conditions there are much better than a wet field in Eastern England.

Now where's a train sized deep storage mine that documents are sent off to for long term storage when you need one!

I hear it's still full of steam engines wink wink

Istr a HST set was found with a literal tree growing out of the driver's cab, when it was ordered to be made ready for service again, so a bit of mould and damp as seen on some 175s probably pales in comparison to that.

I'm surprised they've made it through without any ne'er do-wells going about smashing them up for laugh; vandalism and graffiti have plagued the railway for decades.

 

[tfw756rider]

Istr

"I seem to recall", for anyone wondering.

 

[sad1e]

Istr a HST set was found with a literal tree growing out of the driver's cab, when it was ordered to be made ready for service again, so a bit of mould and damp as seen on some 175s probably pales in comparison to that.

I heard a while back that some of the DB 60's long term stored at Toton have had trees grow up through the tracks and up into their engine bays , causing damage to the engines in the process.

 

[43096]

Istr a HST set was found with a literal tree growing out of the driver's cab, when it was ordered to be made ready for service again, so a bit of mould and damp as seen on some 175s probably pales in comparison to that.

43104 when it was off-lease at Laira for a few years back in the late 1990s/early 2000s. It was returned to service as a replacement for 43011.

 

[BillStampy]

Realtime Trains | 5V84 1148 Wolverton Centre Sidings to Laira T.& R.S.M.D. | 30/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 5V84 1148 departure from Wolverton Centre Sidings to Laira T.& R.S.M.D. on 30/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Another one, 5V84 Wolverton - Laira on Friday, another 3 car if it runs.

 

[XFeed]

That would certainly seem sensible but this is the railway so who knows!

I agree sensible in the short term as more units become available and train crew come up to speed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2026 ==

Reading between the lines, was clearly saying if Leasing Co wants to store trains, got to do lot better to protect them against weather, and electronics need protecting with those moisture absorbers (desiccant or silica gel pouches) so everything stays dry. 25 year old electronics do not work reliably after getting damp.

Prior to TfW withdrawal VMI document "Cold Storage" required desiccant/silica pouches to be placed in various locations within the unit, whether this was carried out or they were replaced at pre determined intervals in storage I wouldn`t know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2026 ==

Cars don't mind being stored outside. They might get mouldy if they have a leak but that's not inherent. Their electronics are potted, connectors are designed to be waterproof etc. Why would a train fare worse?

Unfortunately very few 175 interior electronic components and connectors have a good IP rating and can make them susceptible to damp and moisture ingress.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2026 ==

There are so many bits of knowledge you pick up on them that can't be covered in a training course without it going on forever.


I can think of a few things on 175s that traincrew in the know can fix in seconds, but without that knowledge you'd be looking at delays and even cancellations.

Agreed for sure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2026 ==

Surely, there must be recently retired people who operated/ maintained these trains when with TFW who could be brought in to give helpful advice?

I am sure that these people are around somewhere

 

[brad465]

Realtime Trains | 5V84 1148 Wolverton Centre Sidings to Laira T.& R.S.M.D. | 30/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 5V84 1148 departure from Wolverton Centre Sidings to Laira T.& R.S.M.D. on 30/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Another one, 5V84 Wolverton - Laira on Friday, another 3 car if it runs.

Plus the same day another unit or two appears to be on its way to Wolverton from Ely:

Realtime Trains | 7Q70 0833 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Wolverton Centre Sidings | 30/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 7Q70 0833 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Wolverton Centre Sidings on 30/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[GoneSouth]

I hope GWR are not picking up the bill for any of the extra work required. Sounds quite negligent of the owner to let the units get into an unusable state whilst knowing GWR were interested in using it.

 

[Harpo]

One thing is certain, the vast array of costs to rehabilitate this barn find fleet won’t come from Rosco benevolence but will find their way back to the taxpayer.

The biggest lesson to take from this ought to be the need for greater GBR-wide fleet standardisation and a sound cascade plan. However, given that hundreds of the DfT puppeteers behind these clusterducks are being parachuted into GBR, I doubt we’ve seen the last of these penny wise pound foolish fleet decisions.

 

[REVUpminster]

I hope GWR are not picking up the bill for any of the extra work required. Sounds quite negligent of the owner to let the units get into an unusable state whilst knowing GWR were interested in using it.

Trouble is GWR were not interested in the 175s until the failure of the 769s to work.

 

[Clarence Yard]

That’s rewriting history. There was no “interest” in the 175 units until the DfT said the HST’s had to go and the 175 units became the only units that could replace them.

The decision to junk the 769 units had been made before then, as part of a previous DfT cost-cutting exercise.

 

[The exile]

That’s rewriting history. There was no “interest” in the 175 units until the DfT said the HST’s had to go and the 175 units became the only units that could replace them.

The decision to junk the 769 units had been made before then, as part of a previous DfT cost-cutting exercise.

But none of it smacks of sensible logical stock ordering and cascade.

 

[John R]

But none of it smacks of sensible logical stock ordering and cascade.

Re the 769 decision, what was sensible has to be seen in the context of the environment of the time, which was, IIRC, one where the railway was haemorrhaging billions of pounds due to demand having collapsed due to covid.

 

[Goldfish62]

Mark Hopwood in yesterdays Green Signals interview (available on You tube) alluded to being stored outside, doing their sensitive electronics no good.

Although he did not directly say condensation, frost, damp, mildew etc had damaged them, he used an analogy of if you were going away for a year you wouldn't store your laptop with its electronics on your garden shed roof, then expect it work.

Reading between the lines, was clearly saying if Leasing Co wants to store trains, got to do lot better to protect them against weather, and electronics need protecting with those moisture absorbers (desiccant or silica gel pouches) so everything stays dry. 25 year old electronics do not work reliably after getting damp. I got the impression now regretting having to reactivate trains (175s) that had been stored long time unprotected as just a heap of trouble, and meanwhile leisure traffic has grown and they are struggling with capacity.

Not really a revelation. Roger Ford has been banging about the issues with storing trains outside with complex electronics for ages. It's just that Hopwood is the first industry person to come out saying what everyone is thinking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2026 ==

Cars don't mind being stored outside. They might get mouldy if they have a leak but that's not inherent. Their electronics are potted, connectors are designed to be waterproof etc. Why would a train fare worse?

If I stored my car outside unused outside for 18 months I'd expect multiple problems with it when I tried to start and move it. We shouldn't expect trains to be any different, and the fact is they're not.

 

[REVUpminster]

175009 out today which is good as some of the trains at Laira haven't moved. Just swapping Ely for Laira and not using them is not going to do any good. Hope to see 175101 out soon as that certainly got the cobwebs blown out coming down from Wolverton last Friday.

 

[SoloSR334022]

Deleted - wrong thread

 

[alastair]

I think if the deal for the 175s was signed months sooner whilst the units were receiving handback work at Landore, the vast majority could've gone straight to the likes of Wolverton and Laira without picking up all the issues with long term cold storage.

Once the units have been used enough they'll likely settle in quickly. Take 175001 for example, that's been running on the daily pretty consistently for the past 2-3 weeks without any major issues, we just need more of them running when possible and enough crew have been trained to sustain a 2nd diagram.

I can understand all the multiple problems outlined on this thread, but just with staff training, given that 175's have been shuttling back and forward between Plymouth and N Abbot/Exeter off and on (including stopping, opening/close doors etc at places like Totnes) since last September (5 months ago), how come so few staff have apparently been trained? Thanks if anyone could explain.

 

[Dan G]

If I stored my car outside unused outside for 18 months I'd expect multiple problems with it when I tried to start and move it. We shouldn't expect trains to be any different, and the fact is they're not.

I stored a 25-year old Porsche outside for two years (SORN). I put a new battery on it and it started first time, then passed its MoT first time. Now, Porsches are built to a high standard, but I'd hope a train is at least as high, if not higher!

 

[cce]

The car comparisons are interesting, but

- big car companies will scrap more pre production prototypes and samples than there are class 175 vehicles built. Trains are bespoke handbuilds by car standards.
- cars don't typically have interlocks that stop them working because the door is open or even that critical safety systems are faulty.