Class 175s: Post Wales & Borders Franchise future?

[47802]

I don't see a need to be scrapping 158s yet, they are much newer than the others (mid 1990s rather than mid 1980s) and still look modern. Other 15x I can see the point.

Not really built around 89 to 92 so they are only a couple of years younger than such as a 156, have dodgy Air Con and by the time such as the MML franchise is renewed and new trains are built or even such as cascaded 175's used you are talking 4 or 5 years down the line.

If your really intent on keeping 158's really long term which would be the reality for next set of franchise renewals then you need to be looking at new Air Con and new Engines and Transmission.

 

[mallard]

The next EMT franchise should be looking to replace all 1st generation Sprinters including 158's as should all future franchises that still have them.

I have a pet theory/dream that the EM franchise will take over most of the XC 170 routes (with only the Nottingham-Cardiff fasts remaining with XC) take on the entire XC 170 fleet (with 222s displaced by EMUs/bi-modes going to XC), the spare 185s and at least some of the the ex-ATW 158s and retire all the 153s and 156s. Then the 158s could be replaced by new stock towards the end of the franchise (once manufacturing capacity at CAF/Stadler/Bombardier becomes available).

Although with the DfT's current irrational desire to punish the East Midlands as much as possible, my expectations are far lower...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really built around 89 to 92 so they are only a couple of years younger than such as a 156, have dodgy Air Con and by the time such as the MML franchise is renewed and new trains are built or even such as cascaded 175's used you are talking 4 or 5 years down the line.

Poor aircon can be replaced. The Chiltern system could be fitted.

If your really intent on keeping 158's really long term which would be the reality for next set of franchise renewals then you need to be looking at new Air Con and new Engines and Transmission.

Hasn't SWT/SWR (I forget which) already done this as an experiment - there's one knocking around with mechanical transmission similar to the Class 172, isn't there?

 

[class377fcc12]

Poor aircon can be replaced. The Chiltern system could be fitted.



Hasn't SWT/SWR (I forget which) already done this as an experiment - there's one knocking around with mechanical transmission similar to the Class 172, isn't there?

158885 had the ZF transmission removed quite a while ago now. It was very unreliable compared to the Voith. It was still hydraulic aswell rather than mechanical. The SWR aircon seems to work most of the time, but I think they were replacements anyway.

 

[fgwrich]

Poor aircon can be replaced. The Chiltern system could be fitted.



Hasn't SWT/SWR (I forget which) already done this as an experiment - there's one knocking around with mechanical transmission similar to the Class 172, isn't there?

158885 had the ZF transmission removed quite a while ago now. It was very unreliable compared to the Voith. It was still hydraulic aswell rather than mechanical. The SWR aircon seems to work most of the time, but I think they were replacements anyway.

For all my time using them, the SWT Fitted Liebherr system has always been fairly reliable, if not sometimes a little too cold. From my experiences with the Air Cooling system the Turbos use, Chiltern's always seems to be fairly reliable while the newer ones fitted to GWRs turbos seems to be having a number of issues recently, with one chucking it's water out the side vents.

As for the future of the 175s, I would also like to see them take on Cardiff - Portsmouth services as well. Add in SDO if not fitted already and you can have 3 car, 4 or 5 car operation (2+2 or 2+3). Far better travelling environment than the Turbos!

 

[Qwerty133]

I don't see a need to be scrapping 158s yet, they are much newer than the others (mid 1990s rather than mid 1980s) and still look modern. Other 15x I can see the point.

I'm personally of the view that any 158s freed up should be sent over to SWR with the aim of keeping enough in service for them to remain in the south east until at least 2040

 

[Kite159]

How about them going to GWR to be used on the Cardiff Portsmouths? Operating in a 2 car + 3 car, this will offer a better experience for the customers than Turbos. The Turbos could then be used to get rid of some of the 150s in Devon.

Agreed, will offer a better experience than the suburban Turbos.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Don't see why not, they basically offer the same things (if less reliable), plus a bit more legroom due to going for 8 rather than 9 bodyside windows and the seating spaced accordingly.

I'm sure I looked at the reliability figures for ATW recently and was surprised to find that their 158s were below the 175s in the table.
ETCS might have had something to do with it.
I much prefer a trip in a 175 than a 158, mainly because of the squashed 158 seating (the refurbished seats themselves are fine).
158s have more noise/vibration in certain seats too, naff aircon in the summer, narrow doors/gangways, and always 2-car while 175s at least give you a chance of 3-car.
Plenty of reasons to prefer 175s.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Having done serious 175 mileage between 2005 & 2016 - I cant see why some posters think their dud. A decent internal refurbishment will get another 10 years out of them. The reason there becoming free is because new train finance costs and the benefits of newer more homogeneous fleets on reliability and maintenance costs are at the moment shading keeping them, however this could change.

 

[Philip]

22 class 185s and 27 class 175s would be a very useful asset to gain should they both go to the same operator. Perhaps Northern will take the lot and give back all 150s in the process.

 

[Chester1]

22 class 185s and 27 class 175s would be a very useful asset to gain should they both go to the same operator. Perhaps Northern will take the lot and give back all 150s in the process.

Unless they have break clauses in the leases or they do a deal with the Roscos it won't happen. It might be worth it for Angel Trains though because the 175s would likely be retained by the next Northern franchise but the 150s would nearly certainly be replaced early on.

 

[The Ham]

How about them going to GWR to be used on the Cardiff Portsmouths? Operating in a 2 car + 3 car, this will offer a better experience for the customers than Turbos. The Turbos could then be used to get rid of some of the 150s in Devon.

Allowing for a reasonable turn around at each end you'd need 8 trains forged of two units plus some spares. As such there would be enough 3 coach units to allocate all the diagrams to be 3+3 with some 2 coach units to act as the spares.

That would leave about 9*2 coach units to run some other services.

 

[The Ham]

I have a pet theory/dream that the EM franchise will take over most of the XC 170 routes (with only the Nottingham-Cardiff fasts remaining with XC) take on the entire XC 170 fleet (with 222s displaced by EMUs/bi-modes going to XC), the spare 185s and at least some of the the ex-ATW 158s and retire all the 153s and 156s. Then the 158s could be replaced by new stock towards the end of the franchise (once manufacturing capacity at CAF/Stadler/Bombardier becomes available).

Although with the DfT's current irrational desire to punish the East Midlands as much as possible, my expectations are far lower...

The EMT ITT confirms that XC are keeping their routes.

 

[The Ham]

TOCs can't take on extra stock just because it becomes available. It will be 2022/23 anyway, too far away for most franchises.

2022/23 would mean that it would be quite some time after the start of EMT's (2-3 years) which wouldn't necessarily be ideal as you could probably get new trains just as quickly.

XC being a few months later could probably have similar thoughts, unless there was a good fit for them, but then I'd guess that in a similar timeframe they could get 222's from EMT so they wouldn't be of much help in showing lengthening of their Voyagers.

GWR are a better distance away as there's starts 8 months later in early 2020 (so 18-28 months). It's just could there be suitable routes to take all of them? (See above re numbers required for the Cardiff-Portsmouth services).

Next up is Thameslink et al. Where they could be used to replace the 171's at Southern, although the 3 coach units would need to be reformed in to 4 coach and 2 coach units to better suit the current mix of units.

Then it's Chiltern, which could use them. Although I'm not sure where, maybe as a replacement for the loco sets? (Puts on tin hat and ducks in advance of the backlash)

Next up are East Coast, TPE and SWR (all about the time that they'll be coming off lease) however they are all franchises that would justify buying new stock.

Then it's, about 18 months after the come spare, the start of Northern to start the next franchise. As such if they end up at Northern, chances are it would be part of the next franchise rather than this.

 

[D2007wsm]

Allowing for a reasonable turn around at each end you'd need 8 trains forged of two units plus some spares. As such there would be enough 3 coach units to allocate all the diagrams to be 3+3 with some 2 coach units to act as the spares.

That would leave about 9*2 coach units to run some other services.

I was going 2+3 on the plans for how the Turbos are to be formed. Though with only 2x2 seating rather than 3x2 seating, the extra carriage may be advantageous to offer more seats.

The extra units could be used in 2x2 or 3x2 on the other long distance services out of Bristol such as Brighton, Great Malvern, Weymouth and Worcester. This would allow Turbos to gradually replace the remaining 150s on the Cornwall and Devon local services with the 158s and mini HSTs operating the longer distance services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The EMT ITT confirms that XC are keeping their routes.

It doesn't; it just confirms EMT aren't getting them.

 

[mallard]

The EMT ITT confirms that XC are keeping their routes.

But the XC consultation suggests transferring them to WMT...

 

[IanXC]

Northern needs 18 x 2 coach units equivalent to 170s by end of 2022 and W&B have taken all the 2 car 170s going off lease in the near future. The 11 x 2 coach 175s would be a good fit but the owner (Angel Trains) would want to lease the fleet as a whole and Northern won't want to take 11 x 2 coach + 16 x 3 coach sets when they are only obliged to obtain 18 x 2. There could be potentially a deal to scrap some of the Angel Train sprinters that are in the worst condition early in return for leasing all of the 175s until the end of the franchise. If they are in operation for Northern before 2025 the chances of them being leased by the next opperator are high because bidders will priorise getting rid of the sprinters over younger stock. I agree they should not be allowed to opperate Northern Connect routes instead of 195s.

There are 17x 2 car 170s coming off lease from West Midlands Trains, which would be perfectly suitable for the Northern requirement. I also find it hard to belive that 12x 3 car 170s would be a problem as such if that is what was available.

 

[317 forever]

They could suit some East Midlands services such as Nottingham - Norwich and even Derby - Crewe.

 

[TheWalrus]

How about them going to GWR to be used on the Cardiff Portsmouths? Operating in a 2 car + 3 car, this will offer a better experience for the customers than Turbos. The Turbos could then be used to get rid of some of the 150s in Devon.

I personally love this idea. I want the turbos to do Devon Metro services as I think they would be good with their fast acceleration and short dwell times. 175s would also be nice on the long Cardiff to Portsmouth route.