Class 175 future

[Rhydgaled]

Going back to the topic title, why would 175s be having a different future anyway. They are alright as they are.

Well no. There are 2-car units which cannot be doubled up to make 4-car trains without physically segregating passengers (and trolley) in one unit from the other unit. However, I think the only suggestion which hasn't been knocked down yet (and it probablly will be eventually) is mine. Namely, replacing 6 of the eleven 2-car units with LHCS (or, at a later date, cascaded 158s) and then removing cabs from 7 of the 12 vehicles replaced to create centre cars to create 4-car 175s. Given that is unlikely, it seems unlikely that anything will be done to solve the 175's problem.

6 trains only are required for Llandudno to Manchester not 10 and are 3 Coach 175s, 3 being required for loadings on the route especially during the Summer months.

Do you also know how many 158s are required on Holyhead - Birmingham - Cambrian curcuit? I've just been trying to work that out and have roughly estimated 15 units current requirement (without any 4-car trains between Shrewsbury and Holyhead on those services).

With an hourly Aberystwyth - Birmingham service and 2-hourly Pwlheli and Holyhead - Birminghams (ie. long gaps plugged) all clockface and formed of 2 coaches at their extremities with the Aberystwyths joining Pwlhelis at Machynllyth and Holyheads at Shrewsbury to make 4-car trains for most services into Birmingham that rises to 17.

So 9 units not trapped by ERTMS at the moment, 7 with improved service frequencies. Am I far off the mark? Take out several for maintenance and how many will be left for Cardiff - Pembrokeshire? Not many, and that's before you start making any Holyhead-Shrewsbury services 4-car. Scotrail had jolly well better give us more 158s here in Wales when they get their electrification.

Having spent a long 2 1/2 hours on an ex-Wales & west Silver 158, dogeared and with several misted up double glazed window units, I can safely state that the last thing ATW need is more past it hand me downs!

Misted up window units is very annoying. However, apart from that (which hopefully will be sorted by the refurbishment) and the faulty air-con, 158s are decent units in my opinion. We need more stock to improve services, and I refer you to a previous post of mine

we can't afford brand new rolling stock (and if we can, it should be class 377s for the ValleyLines in my opinion

.

 

[jones_bangor]

Misted up window units is very annoying. However, apart from that (which hopefully will be sorted by the refurbishment) and the faulty air-con, 158s are decent units in my opinion. We need more stock to improve services, and I refer you to a previous post of mine .

I agree that the refurbed units look a lot better - I'm yet to travel on one.

 

[northwichcat]

Going back to the topic title, why would 175s be having a different future anyway. They are alright as they are. Re location of Depot at Chester, it is handily placed for the ATW routes over which they work ovr. The only ECS required is between Chester and Llandudno Jn and between Chester and Crewe.

So the empty 175s running between Manchester and Chester via Altrincham that I see on a regular basis are imaginary then? There's one early afternoon that seems to run from Manchester to Chester via Altrincham on a daily basis.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Going back to the topic title, why would 175s be having a different future anyway. They are alright as they are. Re location of Depot at Chester, it is handily placed for the ATW routes over which they work ovr. The only ECS required is between Chester and Llandudno Jn and between Chester and Crewe.
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6 trains only are required for Llandudno to Manchester not 10 and are 3 Coach 175s, 3 being required for loadings on the route especially during the Summer months.

And how many are required for the Cardiff service?

 

[jones_bangor]

And how many are required for the Cardiff service?

At least one less when 67 and DVT operation starts.

 

[ValleyLines142]

At least one less when 67 and DVT operation starts.

I have no idea why that is.

I'll be sticking to a 175

 

[northwichcat]

I have no idea why that is.

I'll be sticking to a 175

It's because there are 2 WAG expresses. One is loco-hauled operated, the other is 175 operated but will be switching to loco-hauled.

 

[ValleyLines142]

It's because there are 2 WAG expresses. One is loco-hauled operated, the other is 175 operated but will be switching to loco-hauled.

No what I meant is I don't know why there's a WAG Express on the Manchester route!

 

[northwichcat]

Having spent a long 2 1/2 hours on an ex-Wales & west Silver 158, dogeared and with several misted up double glazed window units, I can safely state that the last thing ATW need is more past it hand me downs!

And aren't they in the process of being fully refurbished?

6 trains only are required for Llandudno to Manchester not 10 and are 3 Coach 175s, 3 being required for loadings on the route especially during the Summer months.

By my reckoning 6 would just cover the off-peak Llandundo-Manchester services assuming no unit swaps. However, an additional 2 x 175s are used for the peak time Manchester-Chester extras and the token Airport service.
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No what I meant is I don't know why there's a WAG Express on the Manchester route!

You only said Cardiff services in your earlier post. 175s do appear on Holyhead services as well as Manchester services.

 

[ValleyLines142]

You only said Cardiff services in your earlier post. 175s do appear on Holyhead services as well as Manchester services.

I meant Cardiff. Is there a 67+DVT booked for a Cardiff-Manchester service? I'm fully aware that 175s appear on Holyhead services as well as Manchester services.

 

[PHILIPE]

So the empty 175s running between Manchester and Chester via Altrincham that I see on a regular basis are imaginary then? There's one early afternoon that seems to run from Manchester to Chester via Altrincham on a daily basis.

There are trains running between Chester and Masnchester via Altrincham first thing in the morning and last thing at night and are advertised passenger trains. They cannot call at any of the stations as ATW have nio calling rights on the route.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I meant Cardiff. Is there a 67+DVT booked for a Cardiff-Manchester service? I'm fully aware that 175s appear on Holyhead services as well as Manchester services.

There are no 67s booked for ATW services at the moment. When they appear, it is likely only to be on Holyhead - Cardiff, so no appearance of 67s or DVTs is expected on Manchester - south Wales services.

However, the 67s will hopefully release a 175 from a Cardiff - Holyhead express service. This 175 will in turn probablly replace a class 150 which at least one member of this fourm claims took over a Holyhead - Cardiff diagram when the 175 was removed to work the new express.

 

[ValleyLines142]

There are no 67s booked for ATW services at the moment. When they appear, it is likely only to be on Holyhead - Cardiff, so no appearance of 67s or DVTs is expected on Manchester - south Wales services.

However, the 67s will hopefully release a 175 from a Cardiff - Holyhead express service. This 175 will in turn probablly replace a class 150 which at least one member of this fourm claims took over a Holyhead - Cardiff diagram when the 175 was removed to work the new express.

I get you, right I was going to say, 67s on a Manchester service would be a barrel of laughs.

 

[Rhydgaled]

67s on a Manchester service would be a barrel of laughs.

Why? I think the route probablly deserves a first class service if the Holyhead - Cardiff express does. Where it might be a problem is the length of the train west of Swansea being considered a waste of capacity. That is why (given enough stock) I'd terminate the Manchester - south Wales trains at Swansea (which would then become a mix of LHCS and 175s) and provide increased DMU frequencies from Swansea into the west and from the west (Fishguard and perhaps Milford in particular) to Cardiff via the Swansea district line to replace the lost Manchesters.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Why? I think the route probablly deserves a first class service if the Holyhead - Cardiff express does. Where it might be a problem is the length of the train west of Swansea being considered a waste of capacity. That is why (given enough stock) I'd terminate the Manchester - south Wales trains at Swansea (which would then become a mix of LHCS and 175s) and provide increased DMU frequencies from Swansea into the west and from the west (Fishguard and perhaps Milford in particular) to Cardiff via the Swansea district line to replace the lost Manchesters.

I don't know really, I just think a normal DMU is more appropriate. I think the 175s could have a small First Class section in the front half of the first coach (similar to South West Trains' 159s), although that may decrease capacity. If the route west of Cardiff could be 158 operated, I would say that would free at least 4 or 5 trains on that side for Manchester services. And I still stick to my theory of using 158s from Llandudno to Manchester.

 

[Greenback]

I caught a refurbished 158 today. very nice, but I still prefer 175's!

 

[ValleyLines142]

I caught a refurbished 158 today. very nice, but I still prefer 175's!

I've yet to go on a refurbished 158, they look very nice though!

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don't know really, I just think a normal DMU is more appropriate.

If my cab removal idea is feesible, a mix of 3-car and 4-car 175s on Manchester - Swansea (perhaps with some 3-cars extending to Carmarthen) would be a good alternative to my suggestion of LHCS. However, you still have to find the additional trains to replace the 2-car 175s that are made into 4-car units.

And I still stick to my theory of using 158s from Llandudno to Manchester.

Using what 158s? I like the idea of using 158s on Llandudno - Manchester, since they can be 4-car with a portion for Holyhead. However, the 158s are needed on Cambrian - Birmingham - Holyhead and for additional west Wales services.

With most ATW 158s stuck on Cambrian and Holyhead - Birminghams, it doesn't look like there is going to be enough available for a 2-hourly Fishguard - Cardiff express (which I think I worked out was 3-units), let alone a propper replacement for the Manchesters.

Loco-hauled stock might just be obtainable in a year (that's how long the 67s for WAG express will probablly have taken when they arrive), any other additional stock will take far longer to source.

 

[Rhydgaled]

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[northwichcat]

I meant Cardiff.

So are you not aware of the through Cardiff-Holyhead services? They actually start/terminate in Cardiff unlike the Manchester services which call at Cardiff on their way beyond Cardiff. The Manchester to South Wales trains are just as much Hereford, Shrewsbury or Crewe trains as they are Cardiff trains.

Anyway I thought you were trying to work out how many 175s were used and where they were used. If you only count Manchester to Carmarthen/Milford Haven and Manchester to Llandudno and 175s are used on other services then you'll be counting wrongly.
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If my cab removal idea is feesible, a mix of 3-car and 4-car 175s on Manchester - Swansea (perhaps with some 3-cars extending to Carmarthen) would be a good alternative to my suggestion of LHCS. However, you still have to find the additional trains to replace the 2-car 175s that are made into 4-car units.

What does surprise me about this thread is that I suggested new 4 car DMUs for the Welsh franchise or a large 158 fleet to run all the regional services and everyone seems to prefer keeping the 175s and possibly reforming them to new 4 car DMUs.

I suggested the 175s would work better on Northern commuter services due to the lack of corridor connectors being less of an issue on services where journeys are short and there's no catering trolleys. However, if the users of ATW services aren't interested in that option maybe ordering new trains for Northern is a better option - I just hope if Northern do eventually get a new type of train that has advantages over 175s that ATW users don't start changing their mind and complaining.

 

[Rhydgaled]

What does surprise me about this thread is that I suggested new 4 car DMUs for the Welsh franchise or a large 158 fleet to run all the regional services and everyone seems to prefer keeping the 175s and possibly reforming them to new 4 car DMUs.

I suggested the 175s would work better on Northern commuter services due to the lack of corridor connectors being less of an issue on services where journeys are short and there's no catering trolleys. However, if the users of ATW services aren't interested in that option maybe ordering new trains for Northern is a better option - I just hope if Northern do eventually get a new type of train that has advantages over 175s that ATW users don't start changing their mind and complaining.

As I have said, I think if Wales is to get any brand new trains (which is unlikely) it should be EMUs for ValleyLines.

I would happily have all ATW's 175s swapped for 158s, provided capacity and frequency of ATW services is not reduced. However, I expect finding enough 158s to do the swap is not going to be possible.

Getting 11 158s which don't need to work in multiple to swap the 11 2-car 175s with would be difficult enough. To replace the 16 3-car 175s is even harder as I think you would need to extract 159s from South West Trains, which isn't possible unless they get new trains since they need through corridor connections. 16x3 = 48 carriges. 48 carriges is 24 2-car 158s, or 12 4-car sets (a reduction in the number of units from the current 175 fleet). That's a six unit deficeit, so even if we assume having 12 4-car trains means we can reduce 6 3-car trains down to 2-car, replacing 27 175s will require at least 35 class 158s. I don't think that number of 158s are obtainable, although if they were I say bring them on and give away the inflexible 175s.

Because of the sheer volume of 158s needed to allow Wales to be rid of the 175s without reduction in capacity, I suggested replacing 6 2-car sets with LHCS and replacing the cabs on those 2-car sets with through gangways to make 4-car 175s. The only other thing is to make do with what we have, plus loco sets and a few additional 158s as and when we can get them.

 

[northwichcat]

However, I expect finding enough 158s to do the swap is not going to be possible.

To replace the 16 3-car 175s is even harder as I think you would need to extract 159s from South West Trains, which isn't possible unless they get new trains since they need through corridor connections.

Not necessarily. There are 9 x 3 car 158s that haven't been converted to 159s. There is also the option to reform 3 x 2 car 158s in to 2 x 3 car 158s with a surplus driving cab in the middle. FGW have done this with some of their 2 car 158s and TPE did it in the past.

Also it is expected that Scotrail will release some 158s in the next few years as more electrification takes place. This leaves the option of having 3 car 175s replaced by pairs of 158s, as I suggested in the original post.

 

[tbtc]

it is expected that Scotrail will release some 158s in the next few years as more electrification takes place. This leaves the option of having 3 car 175s replaced by pairs of 158s, as I suggested in the original post

This is what I think will happen, and should happen.

A bigger fleet of 158s would give ATW more flexibility, as would the ability to "drop" coaches (e.g. only two coaches west of Carmarthen, but four coaches on the busy Swansea/ Cardiff/ Newport section, or maybe splitting at Carmarthen to provide two coaches for Milford Haven and two coaches for Fishguard)

 

[PHILIPE]

This thread seems to be based on an abundance of 158s becoming available from somewhere. There is little point in speculating unless there was to be an additional allocation. So where would they come from ? If Svotrail for example, were to throw uop any 158s it does not necessarily mean they would transfer to ATW. Other compamnies such as EMT and Northern would not say no to them either. 4 Car 158s on Llandudno to Manchester would be a waste of a carriage. 2 may not be enough but 3 would generally be adequate.

 

[Greenback]

What does surprise me about this thread is that I suggested new 4 car DMUs for the Welsh franchise or a large 158 fleet to run all the regional services and everyone seems to prefer keeping the 175s and possibly reforming them to new 4 car DMUs.

I suggested the 175s would work better on Northern commuter services due to the lack of corridor connectors being less of an issue on services where journeys are short and there's no catering trolleys. However, if the users of ATW services aren't interested in that option maybe ordering new trains for Northern is a better option - I just hope if Northern do eventually get a new type of train that has advantages over 175s that ATW users don't start changing their mind and complaining.

The flexibility of having a fleet of 158/159's with the ability to run 3, 4, 4 or 6 coach trains would be good for ATW passengers. I would be happy if the 175's went provided the were replaced by an adequate number of alternative units, which seems to be the major problem!

 

[ValleyLines142]

So are you not aware of the through Cardiff-Holyhead services? They actually start/terminate in Cardiff unlike the Manchester services which call at Cardiff on their way beyond Cardiff. The Manchester to South Wales trains are just as much Hereford, Shrewsbury or Crewe trains as they are Cardiff trains.

Anyway I thought you were trying to work out how many 175s were used and where they were used. If you only count Manchester to Carmarthen/Milford Haven and Manchester to Llandudno and 175s are used on other services then you'll be counting wrongly.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say to be honest.

 

[tbtc]

This thread seems to be based on an abundance of 159s becoming available from somewhere. There is little point in speculating unless there was to be an additional allocation. So where would they come from ? If Svotrail for example, were to throw uop any 158s it does not necessarily mean they would transfer to ATW. Other compamnies such as EMT and Northern would not say no to them either

By my rough maths, Scotrail will free up around fifty DMUs with their electrification (the 170s are the best units, and the 156s are needed on the GSW/WHL because 158s won't fit), so it's not a massive leap to imagine a decent number of 158s heading south, enough to share a few around the various TOCs who already have 158s.

 

[jones_bangor]

Are ATW running 158s to Ebbw Vale at the moment, I'm sure one came in to Cardiff Central from there today. Anyway, ATW probably need more 158s irrespective of other stock in order to double Cambrian services.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Are ATW running 158s to Ebbw Vale at the moment, I'm sure one came in to Cardiff Central from there today. Anyway, ATW probably need more 158s irrespective of other stock in order to double Cambrian services.

SAME! Was this at around 1830ish? 158822 came in with 2F61 I think!

 

[jones_bangor]

SAME! Was this at around 1830ish? 158822 came in with 2F61 I think!

Yes, I'd just got off the EGW HST from Neath.