Class 175 future speculation

[TJDevon]

Nothing else in the GWR fleet would work at Gunnislake and Looe so some 150s would have to be retained. The cascade from 769s was HST replacement IIRC...

What exactly is the issue on these two lines? Curvature?

 

[Express380]

What exactly is the issue on these two lines? Curvature?

Looe for a start has a very short platform and barely fits a 150 I was on a 150 there a few years and the driver stopped short so had to pull up slightly it doesn't look hugely easy to extend either.

Also the curves in the Looe valley from Coombe to Looe and Bere Alston to Gunnislake are both very tight would highly reckon this is a factor for what is permitted there but I'm not 100% on that

 

[Class172]

What exactly is the issue on these two lines? Curvature?

Is the answer not quoted in the post before yours? Here is Clarence Yard’s explanation again:

No, it doesn’t. The idea is push any displaced 80x sets back onto main line duties, not cascade them elsewhere.

I wouldn’t get too hung up over 24m - Turbos are 23.5 metres approx so 5 x 24m will have its doors on probably all of the platforms that can currently take 5 x Turbo. It’s the 158 cars that are just under 23m.

The two lines where 23m vehicles are currently a problem are the Gunny and the Looe. The problem there with 15x is cardan shaft and coupler throw. The first disappears with a BEMU and the technology for the second has moved on a bit since the 1980’s.

 

[Snow1964]

What exactly is the issue on these two lines? Curvature?

@Clarence Yard has answered that earlier, the very tight radius of some of the curves is beyond the limits of the carden shafts (the drive shafts linking the engine which is fixed to the body, to the axles which are on the bogie that rotates).

All stock has a minimum curve radius and the line has tighter curves than 23m long vehicles with that form of drive are allowed on.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

@Clarence Yard has answered that earlier, the very tight radius of some of the curves is beyond the limits of the carden shafts (the drive shafts linking the engine which is fixed to the body, to the axles which are on the bogie that rotates).

All stock has a minimum curve radius and the line has tighter curves than 23m long vehicles with that form of drive are allowed on.

23m can (and did) run on the lines in question (cl 153s), however only singularly due to the constraints above with the carden shaft, which means any new 23m fleet would require a different design.

 

[Chiltern006]

i mean, its not horrific

my own work

 

[Bletchleyite]

The bodies look very Mk3 like so if it looks good on a Mk3 (and it does) it will look good on a 175.

 

[Caaardiff]

However, given the reported state of some of these units which appear to have not been well maintained by TfW, I suspect it will be a long while before all of the 175 units make it into service with GWR. (if ever....).

What is the actual state of the 175's? Seems to be lots of rumour but no evidence of yet.
The 175's were fairly reliable when maintained properly. The more recent reliability and subsequent fires were because of a dip in maintenance regime when CAF took over because of the requirements TFW set.
There have been continuous moves around the country to various Depots for heavy maintenance, with Longsight at the start and Ilford towards the end of the TFW lease. Chrysalis are also doing a lot of work to them at Landore. So with all of that you'd think they would be arriving at GWR in a pretty decent state.
There's question marks over the fire damaged unit 175008, but can either see that being the last to be worked on or used for parts.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What is the actual state of the 175's? Seems to be lots of rumour but no evidence of yet.
The 175's were fairly reliable when maintained properly. The more recent reliability and subsequent fires were because of a dip in maintenance regime when CAF took over because of the requirements TFW set.
There have been continuous moves around the country to various Depots for heavy maintenance, with Longsight at the start and Ilford towards the end of the TFW lease. Chrysalis are also doing a lot of work to them at Landore. So with all of that you'd think they would be arriving at GWR in a pretty decent state.
There's question marks over the fire damaged unit 175008, but can either see that being the last to be worked on or used for parts.

Whats seems to happen whenever trains move between operators is that they are always worse than was expected and take far longer to get into use than you would have thought from a previously functioning (largely) train.

 

[Bikeman78]

Whats seems to happen whenever trains move between operators is that they are always worse than was expected and take far longer to get into use than you would have thought from a previously functioning (largely) train.

Not always the case. I can think of two extremes. The four 170s that moved from Scotland to Southern did nothing for a year. Yet the rest of the Scottish fleet carried on as normal so it's not obvious why those four were so bad. Sure, they needed different couplers but that should take days at most. At the other end of the scale, the move of the 12 GN 317s to Ilford seemed straightforward. They were in service within days if I recall correctly.

 

[LowLevel]

Not always the case. I can think of two extremes. The four 170s that moved from Scotland to Southern did nothing for a year. Yet the rest of the Scottish fleet carried on as normal so it's not obvious why those four were so bad. Sure, they needed different couplers but that should take days at most. At the other end of the scale, the move of the 12 GN 317s to Ilford seemed straightforward. They were in service within days if I recall correctly.

The small batch of 170/4s they were part of (416 to 424) were a microfleet owned for some reason by Eversholt Rail. They were candidates for early withdrawal from ScotRail and never got the overhaul that the rest did and were always considered to be poor performers in any case. They're basically in as built condition, with the units at GTR getting a cosmetic tidy up with things like new seat covers chucked over the top of the 20 plus year old original ones.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

I think the question over the 175s is what they'll be like away from Alstom longer term rather than other units such as 170s which are more ubiquitous.

CAF clearly didn't maintain them as well but to me the real question is were Alstom going above and beyond given the issues the 175s and 180s have had.

It's unlikely that anyone where they will be based will have 180 experience beyond one or two staff members and hopefully they don't need above and beyond maintenance but rather a normal maintenance.

If they are maintenance heavy I'd expect GWR to go after the 158s from TfW later if they require less maintenance (without considering nationalisation) as the lower the maintenance the lower the operational cost

 

[The Prisoner]

175111 was in a bit of a state at longsight minus various parts (coupler for one!) and seems to have been put back together, so I’m guessing the plan is definitely all 27 rather than some going as spares.

Living in Chester I’d rather a 175 than a rough riding uncomfortable 197 all day long, but that ship has sailed.

The 175s when maintained properly were excellent and reliable units. Pleased to see them being potentially used again.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The small batch of 170/4s they were part of (416 to 424) were a microfleet owned for some reason by Eversholt Rail. They were candidates for early withdrawal from ScotRail and never got the overhaul that the rest did and were always considered to be poor performers in any case. They're basically in as built condition, with the units at GTR getting a cosmetic tidy up with things like new seat covers chucked over the top of the 20 plus year old original ones.

Were those the ones originally supplied as "compensation" for delays to the 334s?

 

[JonathanH]

Were those the ones originally supplied as "compensation" for delays to the 334s?

No, 170470 and 170471 were the compensation units.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I think the question over the 175s is what they'll be like away from Alstom longer term rather than other units such as 170s which are more ubiquitous.

CAF clearly didn't maintain them as well but to me the real question is were Alstom going above and beyond given the issues the 175s and 180s have had.

It's unlikely that anyone where they will be based will have 180 experience beyond one or two staff members and hopefully they don't need above and beyond maintenance but rather a normal maintenance.

If they are maintenance heavy I'd expect GWR to go after the 158s from TfW later if they require less maintenance (without considering nationalisation) as the lower the maintenance the lower the operational cost

I don’t work at Chester but As I understand it, they just required ‘normal maintenance’.

All that needed doing (and what stopped getting done) was a fairly simple check of the engine bay to see if debris had accumulated in there, and if so, the debris needed removing.

When the debris was allowed to accumulate and remain, it would eventually begin to catch fire due to the heat from the engine.

GWR should have no issues keeping them well looked after in that regard.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

I don’t work at Chester but As I understand it, they just required ‘normal maintenance’.

All that needed doing (and what stopped getting done) was a fairly simple check of the engine bay to see if debris had accumulated in there, and if so, the debris needed removing.

When the debris was allowed to accumulate and remain, it would eventually begin to catch fire due to the heat from the engine.

GWR should have no issues keeping them well looked after in that regard.

That's good to know, at least it means that the right staff should make the right checks

 

[occone]

I don’t work at Chester but As I understand it, they just required ‘normal maintenance’.

All that needed doing (and what stopped getting done) was a fairly simple check of the engine bay to see if debris had accumulated in there, and if so, the debris needed removing.

When the debris was allowed to accumulate and remain, it would eventually begin to catch fire due to the heat from the engine.

GWR should have no issues keeping them well looked after in that regard.

What surprises me the most about this explanation, which I've heard in a few places, is that they presumably already have processes in place to check other parts of the train before they enter service at regular intervals, so how come this couldn't be added to the daily/weekly/monthly check?

 

[Nick Ashwell]

To dangerously assume, CAF wanted more time for 197s so it wasn't prioritised, someone with more knowledge with me can confirm though

 

[43096]

The bodies look very Mk3 like so if it looks good on a Mk3 (and it does) it will look good on a 175.

The bigger problem is the livery looks dull and drab most of the time. The shade of green is slightly too dark - it should really be more like the shade used on the original GWT ‘Merlin’ scheme.

 

[Western 52]

The bigger problem is the livery looks dull and drab most of the time. The shade of green is slightly too dark - it should really be more like the shade used on the original GWT ‘Merlin’ scheme.

Yes I agree it's a bit dark and can look a bit dull. Mind you, it's a good match for the excess lineside vegetation, the train can almost seem to disappear!

 

[Meerkat]

The bigger problem is the livery looks dull and drab most of the time. The shade of green is slightly too dark - it should really be more like the shade used on the original GWT ‘Merlin’ scheme.

It looks good on the IETs but looks awfully drab on the Turbos. Needs a stripe, or swoosh, or something!

 

[baza585]

To dangerously assume, CAF wanted more time for 197s so it wasn't prioritised, someone with more knowledge with me can confirm though

My suspicion is that TfW didn't specify this specific routine check so it didn't get done.

CAF is a contractor so will do the minimum it can get away with, and TfW were asleep on the job in not clarifying that the debris needed to be cleaned out periodically.

 

[Bikeman78]

My suspicion is that TfW didn't specify this specific routine check so it didn't get done.

CAF is a contractor so will do the minimum it can get away with, and TfW were asleep on the job in not clarifying that the debris needed to be cleaned out periodically.

Not sure I agree with this. When I take my car for a service, I don't tell then how to do it. CAF were contracted to maintain the units. All the required tasks should be written down and I expect that work has to be signed off. I am going to assume that when Chester depot transferred from Alstom to CAF, a lot of the staff were the same. So there is even less excuse.

 

[Nym]

Maintenance tasks can be written down as an 'inspect and check' with 'as required'. When under the cosh of new owners, one will do as one is told, and if that is to minimise work to minimise cost and overtime, that's what will be done.

 

[Bikeman78]

Maintenance tasks can be written down as an 'inspect and check' with 'as required'. When under the cosh of new owners, one will do as one is told, and if that is to minimise work to minimise cost and overtime, that's what will be done.

Which is fine up to a point. But when your trains start catching fire on a weekly basis, you can expect some awkward questions.

 

[Nym]

Why is it everyone continues to ask questions to fuel my pessimism.

Which is fine up to a point. But when your trains start catching fire on a weekly basis, you can expect some awkward questions.

"There are additional activities that are carried out during maintenance that may or may not form part of the maintenance instruction packs. When say, for example, employees are TUPE'd onto a new fleet, and have to justify 'additional off books work for this old fleet'. I would expect awkward questions to be asked."

 

[Bikeman78]

Why is it everyone continues to ask questions to fuel my pessimism.


"There are additional activities that are carried out during maintenance that may or may not form part of the maintenance instruction packs. When say, for example, employees are TUPE'd onto a new fleet, and have to justify 'additional off books work for this old fleet'. I would expect awkward questions to be asked."

Who is to say that cleaning the engines wasn't written down? For that matter, do we know that they stopped doing it, other than it being mentioned on this forum? Something clearly changed, or else they were just very unlucky. Did the RAIB get involved?

 

[Nym]

The answer to that would be the Managment of CAF Chester Depot. Who likely no longer work there.

 

[BillStampy]

Any additional news here? The last few 175s I would expect to be out of Wales by September (I believe there's one or two at Crewe, one at Barton, one at Ilford (?) and a few at Landore.) if GWR was to take them on it probably wouldn't take too long to move them across as most are now off from TfW.