Class 175 future speculation

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably nothing can be announced until everything is signed and sealed. After all, nothing is going to happen that will benefit the general public for months, so there is no hurry to make an official announcement which would probably only be greeted with comments about “jam tomorrow”.

Will they even bother making a big thing about it? With the bodies of the 175s looking very Mk3-like, a lot of people will just think it's the same train with new seats.

 

[Meerkat]

Isn’t Laira a bit empty at the moment - will they get them all down there soon as to save on storage costs?

 

[irish_rail]

Isn’t Laira a bit empty at the moment - will they get them all down there soon as to save on storage costs?

Definitely not empty. See it at night and there's barely a spare siding. Yes some old stuff was recently cleared out, but it's full of IETs and Voyagers at night (not to mention several HSTs and a couple of sprinters).

 

[Anonymous10]

Will they even bother making a big thing about it? With the bodies of the 175s looking very Mk3-like, a lot of people will just think it's the same train with new seats.

They may make a song and dance about the Capacity rather than stock.

 

[KevinTurvey]

Thinking back about 25 years when introduced by First Northwestern up north/north wales I recall some platforms needed a bit shaving off the edge for safe clearance. Does the "more generous former GWR loading gauge" accommodate these trains without issue, and given 165s already operate here which are slightly wider anyway?

 

[The exile]

Thinking back about 25 years when introduced by First Northwestern up north/north wales I recall some platforms needed a bit shaving off the edge for safe clearance. Does the "more generous former GWR loading gauge" accommodate these trains without issue, and given 165s already operate here which are slightly wider anyway?

May be an issue west of Plymouth, where Turbos don't operate.

 

[YorkshireBear]

May be an issue west of Plymouth, where Turbos don't operate.

Might be but a fair few platforms received worl for the 80Xs so fingers crossed it's a paperwork exercise.

 

[Snow1964]

Not really, It's been known for some time that GW required additional units to operate some of the extra services it will be running, plus to cater for ever growing demand. That pointed either to waiting for 158s to potentially be released from either Wales (the last to be replaced and already behind schedule) or 158s from East Mids following the proposed Turbostar cascade (now not happening as they're keeping them). As @claranceyard once said, the DMU musical chairs are slowing down and all that's left are the 175s. Then with everything else that has been going on behind the scenes, plus a snap Election, no announcement will have yet been made. All in good time as they say.

Whilst short term it obviously helps with DMU shortage in South West, I do wonder if there is some mid term plan, or if having got the 175s (subject to sign off), the folks of Devon and Cornwall will be stuck with them for next 15-20 years.

Sort of puts any question of electrifying South West of Frome and Weston super Mare on long term back burner (probably until after 2040). No need to do sections of line for Battery EMUs as part of 2028-2032 project Churchward. As won't be many (if any) 158, 165, 166 in the area that need replacing, and new BEMUs can be kept on routes nearer the wires.

 

[Express380]

Whilst short term it obviously helps with DMU shortage in South West, I do wonder if there is some mid term plan, or if having got the 175s (subject to sign off), the folks of Devon and Cornwall will be stuck with them for next 15-20 years.

I for one would be very happy to be stuck with them, the comfy seating quiet ride and generous leg room are all pros in my book

 

[Rhydgaled]

Thinking back about 25 years when introduced by First Northwestern up north/north wales I recall some platforms needed a bit shaving off the edge for safe clearance. Does the "more generous former GWR loading gauge" accommodate these trains without issue, and given 165s already operate here which are slightly wider anyway?

Strange that Network Rail have a clear map for route clearance for freight wagons (W6A, W7, W9 etc.) but the passenger equivilent loading guage profiles (C1 and C3, not sure what happened to C2) don't seem to have any meaning anymore (did they ever?) I think the class 175s are/were marked C3 but I can't find a clear photo showing the relevant part of the vehicle.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Whilst short term it obviously helps with DMU shortage in South West, I do wonder if there is some mid term plan, or if having got the 175s (subject to sign off), the folks of Devon and Cornwall will be stuck with them for next 15-20 years.

Sort of puts any question of electrifying South West of Frome and Weston super Mare on long term back burner (probably until after 2040). No need to do sections of line for Battery EMUs as part of 2028-2032 project Churchward. As won't be many (if any) 158, 165, 166 in the area that need replacing, and new BEMUs can be kept on routes nearer the wires.

Sorry, puts electrifying south west of Frome and Weston Super Mare on the back burner? When have they been on the front burner?

There remains at this point no plan or funding to electrify to Bristol Temple Meads, let alone Frome or Weston Super Mare.

 

[Snow1964]

Sorry, puts electrifying south west of Frome and Weston Super Mare on the back burner? When have they been on the front burner?

There remains at this point no plan or funding to electrify to Bristol Temple Meads, let alone Frome or Weston Super Mare.

They were in the Western decarbonisation strategy about 4 years ago, don't know if these plans are on hold pending financing, or permanently abandoned.

There was also suggestion that couple of sections of SW Main line would need doing if BEMUs were to be built (2028-2032) under project Churchward, and used to replace existing DMUs in far South West. I was trying to point out if the decade younger 175s are introduced, then any electrification for BEMUs can be put back another decade.

 

[The exile]

They were in the Western decarbonisation strategy about 4 years ago, don't know if these plans are on hold pending financing, or permanently abandoned.

There was also suggestion that couple of sections of SW Main line would need doing if BEMUs were to be built (2028-2032) under project Churchward, and used to replace existing DMUs in far South West. I was trying to point out if the decade younger 175s are introduced, then any electrification for BEMUs can be put back another decade.

It still doesn’t resolve what will replace turbos in the MetroWest (and Devon Metro) area (and indeed what will operate the Cornish branches if the fast charge 230 doesn’t work / isn’t suitable.

 

[83G/84D]

Might be but a fair few platforms received worl for the 80Xs so fingers crossed it's a paperwork exercise.

I don’t remember any platform works talking place in Cornwall for the IET’s although there were alterations made a number of years ago for the Class 158’s. One came down on gauging trials.

 

[REVUpminster]

Whilst short term it obviously helps with DMU shortage in South West, I do wonder if there is some mid term plan, or if having got the 175s (subject to sign off), the folks of Devon and Cornwall will be stuck with them for next 15-20 years.

Sort of puts any question of electrifying South West of Frome and Weston super Mare on long term back burner (probably until after 2040). No need to do sections of line for Battery EMUs as part of 2028-2032 project Churchward. As won't be many (if any) 158, 165, 166 in the area that need replacing, and new BEMUs can be kept on routes nearer the wires.

There's only enough 175's to replace the 158s at Exeter and the HSTs at Laira. The 150s would have been gone by now if the 769s had worked.

 

[Energy]

There's only enough 175's to replace the 158s at Exeter and the HSTs at Laira. The 150s would have been gone by now if the 769s had worked.

Nothing else in the GWR fleet would work at Gunnislake and Looe so some 150s would have to be retained. The cascade from 769s was HST replacement IIRC...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Confirmed to drivers via an Aslef circular. 175s will be coming, all 27 of them.

FirstGroup did of course originally order the 175s (and the 180s) from Alstom, for FNW and FGW respectively.
So in some sense they will be "coming home".

 

[Energy]

FirstGroup did of course originally order the 175s (and the 180s) from Alstom, for FNW and FGW respectively.
So in some sense they will be "coming home".

They, along with the 180s, were ordered by North Western Trains and First inherited the order.

 

[REVUpminster]

Nothing else in the GWR fleet would fit at Gunnislake and Looe so some 150s would have to be retained. The cascade from 769s was HST replacement IIRC...

The 769s were for Reading and allow the 165s to come west. Wouldn't need third rail capability in the west.

 

[baza585]

This is welcome news for passengers and staff.

However, given the reported state of some of these units which appear to have not been well maintained by TfW, I suspect it will be a long while before all of the 175 units make it into service with GWR. (if ever....).

I just hope the Rosco make sure that TfW pay for the necessary repairs rather than GWR!

 

[Snow1964]

I just hope the Rosco make sure that TfW pay for the necessary repairs rather than GWR!

That could potentially be a problem, without knowing the details of existing lease (which isn't published), it might be TfW can pay monthly to a set date (eg say when 25 years old) and walk away leaving them unrepaired (as lease return has them as scrap condition after that date, rather than fully repaired).

Potentially there could be a few where it is cheaper to pay out any lease penalty, than cost of huge repairs if damaged. All commercial transport leases have settlements depending on age (in case it is lost, stolen, or damaged beyond repair etc).

It is 27 years since they were ordered, and 24 years since first ones entered service. So unlikely to be hefty lease penalties at tail end of expected life.

 

[The exile]

This is welcome news for passengers and staff.

However, given the reported state of some of these units which appear to have not been well maintained by TfW, I suspect it will be a long while before all of the 175 units make it into service with GWR. (if ever....).

I just hope the Rosco make sure that TfW pay for the necessary repairs rather than GWR!

Given the numbers being bandied around earlier in the thread, it wouldn’t surprise me if several of the vehicles are being taken simply as Christmas Trees.

 

[Wolfie]

Given the numbers being bandied around earlier in the thread, it wouldn’t surprise me if several of the vehicles are being taken simply as Christmas Trees.

That's an interesting point. Given that the 175s aren't much newer than the Networkers (both diesel and electric variants) which have apparently suffered from difficulties in procuring obsolete or obsolescent components l wonder if there may be similar issues here?

If so and there are also known corrosion issues then careful selection of the worst for scrapping/parts reclamation would be eminently sensible.

Following that logic further, and wondering about possible parts commonalities with the class 180s, that might be even more sensible. Or perhaps, if the 180s can't be re-leased using them as parts donors for the 175s (and, in the case of the actual engines, other classes such as Voyagers).

 

[Bob Price]

They have been passing through Chrysalis at Landore bringing them up to standard. We saw some images at a RCTS meeting last week of the work taking place.

 

[Russel]

What work is actually required on these to bring them back up to an acceptable standard?

 

[ChrisC]

This is welcome news for passengers and staff.

However, given the reported state of some of these units which appear to have not been well maintained by TfW, I suspect it will be a long while before all of the 175 units make it into service with GWR. (if ever....).

I just hope the Rosco make sure that TfW pay for the necessary repairs rather than GWR!

Hopefully this won’t end up a similar situation to what happened at EMR with the HSTs they were going to get from LNER. I don’t know how much money was wasted there.

 

[43096]

They, along with the 180s, were ordered by North Western Trains and First inherited the order.

Only some of what became the 180s were for NWT. If I remember correctly the original order for NWT was
11 x 2-car 100mph (175)
7 x 3-car 100mph (175)
9 x 3-car 125mph (180 presumably)

Around the same time (though I think a little later) GWT ordered 8 x 5-car 125mph (180) with a further 6 added later.

With NWT not needing the 125mph ability once its London plans were scuppered, the whole order was restructured into what we have now.

 

[Energy]

Only some of what became the 180s were for NWT. If I remember correctly the original order for NWT was
11 x 2-car 100mph (175)
7 x 3-car 100mph (175)
9 x 3-car 125mph (180 presumably)

Around the same time (though I think a little later) GWT ordered 8 x 5-car 125mph (180) with a further 6 added later.

With NWT not needing the 125mph ability once its London plans were scuppered, the whole order was restructured into what we have now.

Makes sense, NWT was by Great Western Holdings. I can't remember which of the 180s (if any) were ordered under First Group, their subsequent orders went to Siemens (360, 185) but its unlikely that anyone apart from Alstom or old Bombardier would have been interested in the small 180 order.

 

[Meerkat]

Nothing else in the GWR fleet would fit at Gunnislake and Looe so some 150s would have to be retained. The cascade from 769s was HST replacement IIRC...

Is that totally unfixable? If it is then shut them (runs away and hides).

 

[Energy]

Is that totally unfixable? If it is then shut them (runs away and hides).

From @Clarence Yard's post here. (thread closed so can't quote properly)

The two lines where 23m vehicles are currently a problem are the Gunny and the Looe. The problem there with 15x is cardan shaft and coupler throw. The first disappears with a BEMU and the technology for the second has moved on a bit since the 1980’s.

IIRC a 158 was problematic when tried before and I'm doubtful a 165/166 would even fit, though modern units are more likely to be ok.

The 769s were for Reading and allow the 165s to come west. Wouldn't need third rail capability in the west.

When did I mention third rail capability? The 158s and 165s wouldn't work for Gunnislake or for Looe so 769s wouldn't have been total 150 replacement. IIRC the original intention was that 12 150s would remain until it was decided that GWR needed more.