Class 175 future speculation

[Anonymous10]

The length of lease requested would no doubt influence the price quoted - a shorter lease and the cost per day/month/year will go up so that any investment is recovered.

Of course TFW had no option given speeds to introduce their fleets and it being a legal requirement as well, so the leaser could just ask more for that reason too.

 

[Bikeman78]

For the 150s many of them have had short term extensions to existing leases (due to later than planned arrival of new stock). Whilst existing operator will accept it because it is helping them out, not the way a new operator would look at it.

It is same principle as if you were renting a flat or buying a secondhand car, would expect cleaning, refresh, and anything due a service to be done, so it is ready for you to use for period of the lease.

The production 150s were built 37-39 years ago, and a LeaseCo doesn't want to spend an unknown amount of money to only get just a few years rental.

Some of the 150s still have a few years until their C6 overhauls are due. In theory, when they become surplus from TfW, they could go to another TOC with the lease end date being the same as the C6 date.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Wouldn't be impossible for them to go through another C6 either if someone was willing to pay and there was a customer for them

 

[Rhydgaled]

Of course TFW had no option given speeds to introduce their fleets and it being a legal requirement as well, so the leaser could just ask more for that reason too.

If the ROSCO was demanding a 10 year lease until 2030 to get a return on the investment in PRM toilets etc. presumably TfW could have applied for a 3yr dispensation from the PRM requirement? There was also an alternative (on paper) in the form of the class 769s, which the ROSCO in question were claiming they could turn 319s into at quite a rate. Without the benefit of hindsight, the 769s were what I thought the winning bidder for the Wales & Borders franchise contract should do - these being the only solution I could see to getting PRM compliance by 2020 and electricly operated ValleyLines soon after.

 

[Snow1964]

Wouldn't be impossible for them to go through another C6 either if someone was willing to pay and there was a customer for them

From an engineering point of view, they could do. But of course after a C6 the unit is expected to be good for X miles (not sure what actual mileage is for that class)

Commercially there is a big risk, in that the level of work needed if they are worn or corroded might be more expensive than any future lease income.

Economically the lease cost could be set high enough to cover potential additional work, but if the trains are going to be expensive, then operator probably thinking why do they want 38 year old 150s, or 25 year old 175s when for not much more could have something newish.
.

 

[skyhigh]

presumably TfW could have applied for a 3yr dispensation from the PRM requirement?

I highly doubt they'd have had it granted.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Wouldn't be impossible for them to go through another C6 either if someone was willing to pay and there was a customer for them

Not if the owner (Portebrook) doesn’t want the risk so takes them off the market.

 

[Topological]

The BBC have deemed that the 175s have no future...

Link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw885qx6gylo

Train's final journey scuppered by nesting birds​

A train's final journey before it is withdrawn from service was held up after nesting gulls were found holed up in rail tracks.
The special journey was planned this week to move the empty train from Holyhead in Anglesey to Landore works in Swansea.
But when the crew turned up, they could not get the train out of the sidings without disturbing the birds’ nest.
Gulls are a protected species, and all alternative tracks were blocked, so the journey had to be cancelled.

 

[simonmpoulton]

I've read on other sites that they are definitely supposed to be going to GWR but the remedial works required seem to be the current delay - believe that TFW are still leasing 19 units as they have not yet been returned to a condition that they can be handed back yet!

 

[baza585]

I've read on other sites that they are definitely supposed to be going to GWR but the remedial works required seem to be the current delay - believe that TFW are still leasing 19 units as they have not yet been returned to a condition that they can be handed back yet!

I'm more shocked that gulls are a protected species in Holyhead than that TfW are still paying leases on the 175 fleet because they are not fit to be returned! What a shambles.

No consolation to GWR passengers on Pompey-Cardiff either!

 

[Philip]

I don't think it's a given just yet that GWR will take them on, clearly they still need a lot of work doing to them and that's before route clearance & crew training starts, which could take up to a couple of years. By that time there'll be a fair number of spare 158s available which would be easier for them to integrate into the fleet, possibly also some 170s, so GWR may decide to wait on these rather than taking a chance with the 175s. The maintenance requirements may also be an issue; the specialised Alstom depot at Chester eventually nailed the maintenance regime to make them reliable, but we saw what happened last year when maintenance slipped.

 

[170UTD]

Just to throw it out there. I've just overheard 3 GWR conductors saying the the 175s are coming next year and will be initially tested on the Newquay line. Make of that what you will.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

The GWR planning department have been told to start planning for their arrival. Apparently.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The GWR planning department have been told to start planning for their arrival. Apparently.

Planning work has been going on for some time as that’s part of making the case for them.

 

[REVUpminster]

Just to throw it out there. I've just overheard 3 GWR conductors saying the the 175s are coming next year and will be initially tested on the Newquay line. Make of that what you will.

It might make sense if as previous rumours the trains were stored at Laira which would maintain work at the depot.

 

[Dan G]

175s would be on Penzance - Cardiff and likely the Barnstable and Okehampton services. The freed-up 158s would be deployed in Cardiff - Portsmouth in 4/5 car, but still with 1 165/166 diagram. The freed up IETs would be moved back to London services.

I can't for the life of me think why 100 mph stock would be used to trundle back and forth to Okehampton. If 175s go to GWR they'll be used on services running on the main lines.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I can't for the life of me think why 100 mph stock would be used to trundle back and forth to Okehampton. If 175s go to GWR they'll be used on services running on the main lines.

The plan if GWR gets the 175s is to use them in the west on routes such as Plymouth / Penzance replacing HSTs / 158s and some 802s, Okehampton replacing 150s allowing for these to work Newquay - Falmouth services and Barnstaple replacing 158s.

The 158s will then all be centred on Portsmouth to Cardiff.

 

[Anonymous10]

The plan if GWR gets the 175s is to use them in the west on routes such as Plymouth / Penzance replacing HSTs / 158s and some 802s, Okehampton replacing 150s allowing for these to work Newquay - Falmouth services and Barnstaple replacing 158s.

The 158s will then all be centred on Portsmouth to Cardiff.

In turn releasing turbos for other work around Bristol and Devon if I recall correctly?

 

[Rich McLean]

In turn releasing turbos for other work around Bristol and Devon if I recall correctly?

Correct. Exeter would gain an additional 16x diagram, which would in total 4 x 150s for Cornwall Metro. Exeter would lose 4 x 3 car 158 diagrams which enables the remaining 3 car 158s to reform back to 2 car (158798 excepted).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Correct. Exeter would gain an additional 16x diagram, which would in total 4 x 150s for Cornwall Metro. Exeter would lose 4 x 3 car 158 diagrams which enables the remaining 3 car 158s to reform back to 2 car (158798 excepted).

Nope.
Same number of 16x diagrams at Exeter. The 2 x 150s needed for Cornwall Enhancements come from the Okehampton Line released by 175s.

No further reforming of cl158s either they move up to Bristol for use on the Pompey / Cardiffs as 3 car 158s allowing there to be 5 car 158 formations on some of those services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2024 ==

In turn releasing turbos for other work around Bristol and Devon if I recall correctly?

The turbos released from Pompey / Cardiff are used to deliver the next stages of Metro West around Bristol, no further cascades to Devon at the moment.

This obviously all relies on the 175s being agreed by DfT.

 

[RPI]

I can't for the life of me think why 100 mph stock would be used to trundle back and forth to Okehampton. If 175s go to GWR they'll be used on services running on the main lines.

There would be an advantage, the line is 75MPH most of the way from Coleford Junction to just outside of Okehampton and it seems to take an age for a 150 to actually get to that speed, so although the 175's may not be the best fit in a perfect world, they're all that's available and their superior acceleration will at least allow line speed to be attained quicker, once Okehampton Interchange is open this will give a minute or possibly two minutes extra resilience - again, it may be an unintended benefit.

 

[michael74]

There would be an advantage, the line is 75MPH most of the way from Coleford Junction to just outside of Okehampton and it seems to take an age for a 150 to actually get to that speed, so although the 175's may not be the best fit in a perfect world, they're all that's available and their superior acceleration will at least allow line speed to be attained quicker, once Okehampton Interchange is open this will give a minute or possibly two minutes extra resilience - again, it may be an unintended benefit.

And if NR ever feels flush and reinstate Coleford Junction proper, reinstate an up/down line (and upgrade what is currently the Oke line between Crediton and Coleford Just) you would easily shave off a couple more minutes and improve resilience.

I don't get this idea that Devon branches trundle.

 

[craigybagel]

There would be an advantage, the line is 75MPH most of the way from Coleford Junction to just outside of Okehampton and it seems to take an age for a 150 to actually get to that speed, so although the 175's may not be the best fit in a perfect world, they're all that's available and their superior acceleration will at least allow line speed to be attained quicker, once Okehampton Interchange is open this will give a minute or possibly two minutes extra resilience - again, it may be an unintended benefit.

Having driven both, a 175 will definitely get to 75 a lot quicker and easier than a 150 will. And indeed a 158.

 

[RPI]

Having driven both, a 175 will definitely get to 75 a lot quicker and easier than a 150 will. And indeed a 158.

The 150's seem to struggle from Coleford Junction going towards Oke, the speed changes from around (I don't know the exact speed, so I'm sure I'll be corrected) 45ish MPH to 75 a bit further on but also on a rising gradient.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The 150's seem to struggle from Coleford Junction going towards Oke, the speed changes from around (I don't know the exact speed, so I'm sure I'll be corrected) 45ish MPH to 75 a bit further on but also on a rising gradient.

https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ has the speed going from 40mph to 75mph.

 

[RPI]

https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ has the speed going from 40mph to 75mph.
View attachment 159671

I was nearly right haha

 

[Xavi]

And if NR ever feels flush and reinstate Coleford Junction proper, reinstate an up/down line (and upgrade what is currently the Oke line between Crediton and Coleford Just) you would easily shave off a couple more minutes and improve resilience.

In the pipeline though nobody knows how drawn out the pipeline is these days.....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I actually think simply painting the red doors and red swoosh at the cab ends into GWR dark green (and whacking a GWR logo on) would look fairly smart, rather than fully vinyling into the full livery.

 

[43096]

I actually think simply painting the red doors and red swoosh at the cab ends into GWR dark green (and whacking a GWR logo on) would look fairly smart, rather than fully vinyling into the full livery.

The rate at which TfW are managing to get the units into an acceptable state for handback to Angel might mean there's a GBR livery that could be applied by the time they get back into service!

 

[Russel]

I actually think simply painting the red doors and red swoosh at the cab ends into GWR dark green (and whacking a GWR logo on) would look fairly smart, rather than fully vinyling into the full livery.

I agree, that could look quite smart.

I'm not so sure these will look any good in full GWR livery.