Class 175 future speculation

[Christmas]

Would the 175s be compatible with the existing ScotRail DMUs?

 

[Western 52]

Would the 175s be compatible with the existing ScotRail DMUs?

I don't think so. I believe they are multiple working within their class only.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

I don't think so. I believe they are multiple working within their class only.

Correct.

 

[simonmpoulton]

Would have thought though if there was a will that they could be modified to work in multiple with other units though? That would certainly be a way out of the micro fleet issue. The 170 turbostars can after all work in multiple with sprinters.

It’s a bit of a shambles the system we’ve ended up with all these different couplers and incompatible systems! It’s a shame that coupling systems haven’t been standardised!

 

[43096]

Would have thought though if there was a will that they could be modified to work in multiple with other units though? That would certainly be a way out of the micro fleet issue. The 170 turbostars can after all work in multiple with sprinters.

How is that going to be done? It's not as simple as changing the coupler.

 

[Nym]

Would have thought though if there was a will that they could be modified to work in multiple with other units though? That would certainly be a way out of the micro fleet issue. The 170 turbostars can after all work in multiple with sprinters.

It’s a bit of a shambles the system we’ve ended up with all these different couplers and incompatible systems! It’s a shame that coupling systems haven’t been standardised!

No, there really isn't.

It's a very different way of control even before one considered TCMS etc. It would essentially mean converting one fleet or the other's control system, which is prohibitively expensive for our railway to achieve.

Turbostars, Sprinters and Turbos use an extremely "BR" control method with notched brakes and traction. The former adds an Emergency step on Turbostars, but it's all essentially the same three braking notches and seven throttle notches dating back to the 80s.

Cordias use a much more "LUL" style method of control, with duplicated A and D for critical circuits and a PWM signal for traction and braking control.
It would in fact be easier to make a Cordia talk to a 1992 Tube Stock (Or 95/96TS) than it would to a Turbostar electrically.

 

[skyhigh]

It would in fact be easier to make a Cordia talk to a 1992 Tube Stock (Or 95/96TS) than it would to a Turbostar electrically.

Don't give people ideas.

 

[Philip]

Would the modifications be any easier for allowing 175/180 to couple to a 185? They are mechanically very similar trains and the 185 is more or less Siemens' version of the Coradia.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Well. Going by the comments here. I wouldn't think that the 175s would have much of a future unless someone who has a fantastic railway brain and does like a rail recycling programme where like South West Trains did back in 2013 but seeing reports of Alstom possibly making staff redundant? I don't know if that is going to happen.

But, you never know. Strange things do happen?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would the modifications be any easier for allowing 175/180 to couple to a 185? They are mechanically very similar trains and the 185 is more or less Siemens' version of the Coradia.

To work in multiple would need a complete rip out of the electrical control systems and software, and replaced with a system compatible with that of a 185. Then making sure the couplers are at the same height and of the same type, with no difference as to where the electrical connection is (as seen on the various CAF fleets).
To couple for rescue purposes would just need the latter part about couplers, or for adaptors to be carried in the cab of each fleet.

All fleets are around the half-life stage, though that's being a little generous to the Alstom ones. Spending that kind of money is in the "never gonna happen" category. Just because something might be technically feasible doesn't mean there's any sense in doing it.

 

[Dan G]

They're good trains and the network is short of DMUs. They'll find a home.

 

[JonathanH]

They're good trains and the network is short of DMUs. They'll find a home.

The network is short of money as well. I wouldn't be so confident.

 

[liamf656]

They're good trains and the network is short of DMUs. They'll find a home.

Where do you suggest they go? Bearing in mind TfW are also giving up their 158s at some stage which are cheaper and removes the possibility of new fleets at a few TOCs.

Even if there was money to splash I don't think it would be wise on such a fleet as they've been plagued with issues the past few years and I don't see then settling well at any depot

 

[Gonzalez]

I'm kind of surprised nobody mentioned the possibility of extending the 175s by merging them with the 180s which could make them potential successors for a number of trains including Mark 3s and the HSTs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm kind of surprised nobody mentioned the possibility of extending the 175s by merging them with the 180s which could make them potential successors for a number of trains including Mark 3s and the HSTs.

There's only one place the 180s should go, and that's scrap. They're unreliable junk.

 

[Energy]

I'm kind of surprised nobody mentioned the possibility of extending the 175s by merging them with the 180s which could make them potential successors for a number of trains including Mark 3s and the HSTs.

Wrong engines. The 180s are unreliable enough as is.

 

[skyhigh]

I'm kind of surprised nobody mentioned the possibility of extending the 175s by merging them with the 180s which could make them potential successors for a number of trains including Mark 3s and the HSTs.

Oh but they have, several times in this thread alone.

Can carriages from 180s be inserted into 175s or are they completely different?

Both Class 180 and 175 intermediate cars are 23.03m length, so if we're to get really speculative, you could steal the centre cars of EMR's 180 (although those are notably corroded)

As the there are not enough 3 car 175 available can the middle cars off the stored class 180 be uses to make up more 3 car units.

 

[Clansman]

I do wonder if we've hit the point in rolling stock replacements where we consider anything to be 'modern' if it doesn't have openable windows or isn't ex-BREL (I'll dub it 'the hopper window effect', 'BREL effect', or the 'modern appearance illusion'). First it was the Renatus 321s, and now the 180s and 175s next in succession - with no regard for what lies underneath.

We'll still be sitting here in 2040 with the last of the 170s being described as good as new for the illusion of its appearance.

The 175s and 180s are absolutely done going by what folks are saying who've worked on them.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I do wonder if we've hit the point in rolling stock replacements where we consider anything to be 'modern' if it doesn't have openable windows or isn't ex-BREL (I'll dub it 'the hopper window effect', 'BREL effect', or the 'modern appearance illusion'). First it was the Renatus 321s, and now the 180s and 175s next in succession - with no regard for what lies underneath.

We'll still be sitting here in 2040 with the last of the 170s being described as good as new for the illusion of its appearance.

The 175s and 180s are absolutely done going by what folks are saying who've worked on them.

175’s were good units, generally liked by train crew, but particularly liked by drivers.

Can’t speak for those who maintained them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I do wonder if we've hit the point in rolling stock replacements where we consider anything to be 'modern' if it doesn't have openable windows or isn't ex-BREL (I'll dub it 'the hopper window effect', 'BREL effect', or the 'modern appearance illusion'). First it was the Renatus 321s, and now the 180s and 175s next in succession - with no regard for what lies underneath.

We'll still be sitting here in 2040 with the last of the 170s being described as good as new for the illusion of its appearance.

The 175s and 180s are absolutely done going by what folks are saying who've worked on them.

I think you're on to something here. Whilst Pacers being withdrawn made me feel old because I just about remember them as "new", it was easy to get my head around the fact that they were ready for the scrapyard just by looking at them. On the other hand the idea of Mk4s being scrapped seems absurd because to me they still seem like "modern" trains to me.

 

[Russel]

I do wonder if we've hit the point in rolling stock replacements where we consider anything to be 'modern' if it doesn't have openable windows or isn't ex-BREL (I'll dub it 'the hopper window effect', 'BREL effect', or the 'modern appearance illusion'). First it was the Renatus 321s, and now the 180s and 175s next in succession - with no regard for what lies underneath.

We'll still be sitting here in 2040 with the last of the 170s being described as good as new for the illusion of its appearance.

The 175s and 180s are absolutely done going by what folks are saying who've worked on them.

From experience of using the XC and EMR 170s, I'd say the 175's are in a much better condition, from a passenger point of view, will they make it into the 2040's?

Even mechanically, the last few 170s I've used have all sounded rough.

 

[Philip]

With a 175 now being stored/repaired at Barton-under-Needwood (near Burton-on-Trent), I suppose it's worth considering whether Cross Country could find some use for the units, being an all-diesel TOC?

Possibly Cardiff-Nottingham to free up 170s which could in turn go to EMR, Northern (both to replace Sprinters), or even Chiltern (converted to 168s) or GWR to replace their Mk3s & HSTs respectively?

 

[Anonymous10]

With a 175 now being stored/repaired at Barton-under-Needwood (near Burton-on-Trent), I suppose it's worth considering whether Cross Country could find some use for the units, being an all-diesel TOC?

Possibly Cardiff-Nottingham to free up 170s which could in turn go to EMR, Northern (both to replace Sprinters), or even Chiltern (converted to 168s) or GWR to replace their Mk3s & HSTs respectively?

I doubt they would go to gwr, given it's a new set of stock to xc and a new set to gwr. It would be more likely for gwr direct or xc to allow cascade to scotrail, Northern or Chiltern.

However given its an Alstom depot it could just be maintenance with no further reason other than they had the capacity to take the work on.

 

[JonathanH]

With a 175 now being stored/repaired at Barton-under-Needwood (near Burton-on-Trent), I suppose it's worth considering whether Cross Country could find some use for the units, being an all-diesel TOC?

I'm not sure it is. That idea has been debunked a few times. Are there some parts on them that could be used as spares for other fleets? More seriously, aren't the owners just taking them to various Alstom depots with capacity to fix bits on them?

 

[sd0733]

I'm not sure it is. That idea has been debunked a few times. Are there some parts on them that could be used as spares for other fleets? More seriously, aren't the owners just taking them to various Alstom depots with capacity to fix bits on them?

That seems to be more the case with units now at Alstom depots at Barton under Needwood, Longsight and Ilford. It doesn't really point to a TOC taking them, perhaps surprisingly there's not been a thread about the ones at Ilford going onto the Stansted express or Norwich services yet.....

 

[Philip]

I'm not sure it is. That idea has been debunked a few times. Are there some parts on them that could be used as spares for other fleets? More seriously, aren't the owners just taking them to various Alstom depots with capacity to fix bits on them?

Cardiff to Nottingham wouldn't be a bad shout nonetheless and Barton depot is on the route and has the advantage of being an Alstom depot. The XC 170s could easily find work elsewhere; EMR, Northern & Chiltern being the most likely as all 3 TOCs already operate Turbostars with suitable depot facilities and have purposeful reasons for taking them on.

The 175s would be good units for Cardiff-Birmingham-Nottingham; it's inter-urban express and if they all ran doubled up then it utilise most of the fleet, as this route currently uses 11 diagrams I think. Can all the stations served within this route accomodate 6-car trains?

 

[YorkRailFan]

With a 175 now being stored/repaired at Barton-under-Needwood (near Burton-on-Trent), I suppose it's worth considering whether Cross Country could find some use for the units, being an all-diesel TOC?

Possibly Cardiff-Nottingham to free up 170s which could in turn go to EMR, Northern (both to replace Sprinters), or even Chiltern (converted to 168s) or GWR to replace their Mk3s & HSTs respectively?

Would the DFT really want XC to take on another microfleet after only removing one (the HSTs) last year?

 

[D365]

Above all - is it not up to Angel Trains to be 'selling' their units?

 

[Kite159]

Would the DFT really want XC to take on another microfleet after only removing one (the HSTs) last year?

Depends how you class a microfleet

 

[YorkRailFan]

Depends how you class a microfleet

A fleet of under 15 or so trains that aren't really used by other TOCs. Say the Nova 3s.