Class 175 future speculation

[Philip]

175s for the Liverpool-Norwich route, releasing 170s for Chiltern Railways to replace LHCS and 158s for Northern to replace 155s/156s?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Not really a contradiction because a non DfT organisation could well come in and get them whilst the DfT plays lease price chicken with the ROSCO. Same with the 379 units.

EMR is an interesting thought but the crew training costs wouldn’t be cheap and would they really want to move away from what they have now?

 

[Lurcheroo]

175s for the Liverpool-Norwich route, releasing 170s for Chiltern Railways to replace LHCS and 158s for Northern to replace 155s/156s?

Chiltern MK3 replacement fleet possibilities?

The current locos appear to live in Stourbridge, this depot would probably accommodate the result of this selection. How about Banbury, for mk5 also, also considering the move to Bletchley from Banbury for East West rail operations, Chiltern from a few good sources, I have been told, has a good...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thread here about chiltern replacing their MK3’s. They’ve put out a tender and want training to start next year so that seems too short notice.

 

[43102EMR]

175s for the Liverpool-Norwich route, releasing 170s for Chiltern Railways to replace LHCS and 158s for Northern to replace 155s/156s?

They won’t go to EMR - the mix of 158s and 170s in the regional fleet is an ideal balance for them from a compatibility perspective, a disadvantage of the 175s essentially being a micro fleet.

 

[Prestige15]

East West Rail or a open access operator.

Cannot see the 175 going to EMR, Best chance would be Chiltern, Northern, remain with TfW or Newport Sims

 

[Lurcheroo]

East West Rail or a open access operator.

Cannot see the 175 going to EMR, Best chance would be Chiltern, Northern, remain with TfW or Newport Sims

Can’t see them coming back to TFW in truth, they’ve had the TFW branding stripped from them and sent to storage.
Seems more likely chiltern will get MK5’s than 175’s (but not impossible).
Apparently someone has signed for them so guess it’s not the scrap heap.
So possibly Northern ? They’ve got a tender out for new units but the 175’s could be some additional capacity in the mean time.

 

[Neptune]

So possibly Northern ? They’ve got a tender out for new units but the 175’s could be some additional capacity in the mean time.

Definitely not us. We looked at them a couple of years ago and ruled them out. There’s many pages about the whys and wherefores elsewhere. The new build will directly replace our 15x fleet, nothing planned to come in in the interim.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Definitely not us. We looked at them a couple of years ago and ruled them out. There’s many pages about the whys and wherefores elsewhere. The new build will directly replace our 15x fleet, nothing planned to come in in the interim.

I wonder if the person saying they're signed for had old info, as no TOC seems to be admitting it either directly or via people who work for them on here or X. Unless it's outside the UK of course.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Definitely not us. We looked at them a couple of years ago and ruled them out. There’s many pages about the whys and wherefores elsewhere. The new build will directly replace our 15x fleet, nothing planned to come in in the interim.

Ahh good to know ! Also sounds like Scotrail and GWR don’t want them either. So we’re running out of suitable TOCS.

I wonder if the person saying they're signed for had old info, as no TOC seems to be admitting it either directly or via people who work for them on here or X. Unless it's outside the UK of course.

I was just going to say, perhaps it will be outside the UK then ?

 

[sd0733]

I wonder if the person saying they're signed for had old info, as no TOC seems to be admitting it either directly or via people who work for them on here or X. Unless it's outside the UK of course.

What I said several months back does appear to be old info but at the time when extensions could potentially have happened it wasn't.

It was said by multiple very reliable knowledgable people in TfW who would know these things that extending the lease wasnt possible at the time with another lease for them lined up.

In the meantime something has clearly changed, whether that be a deal that's fallen through/ unexpectedly pulled out or something else I don't know but a lot of time has now passed with no movement with the fleet other than ecs moves to/from Ilford, Holyhead, Crewe and Landore.

 

[Whistler40145]

Definitely won't be returning to TfW with brand new new units replacing them

 

[61653 HTAFC]

175s for the Liverpool-Norwich route, releasing 170s for Chiltern Railways to replace LHCS and 158s for Northern to replace 155s/156s?

Am I right in thinking that the 175s can't use SP differentials? Think I recall someone "in the know" saying they could use MU and HST speeds (the latter only up to 100, obviously) but not SP... but it's been a while so I may be misremembering.

 

[bspahh]

Am I right in thinking that the 175s can't use SP differentials? Think I recall someone "in the know" saying they could use MU and HST speeds (the latter only up to 100, obviously) but not SP... but it's been a while so I may be misremembering.

Message 1411 in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-175-future-speculation.218095/page-48#post-6466658 says:

No. Can use MU and HST, which is all they needed at TfW, but not SP.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Message 1411 in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-175-future-speculation.218095/page-48#post-6466658 says:

Thanks. Presume that would rule out Liverpool to Norwich- the suggestion that won't die (see also 185s, mk5a, etc etc.)?

 

[Dan G]

The new tender for 65 or 70 vehicles for Chiltern is clearly a competition pitting the 175 fleet against the ex-TPE 68s and Mk5 carriages

 

[Lurcheroo]

The new tender for 65 or 70 vehicles for Chiltern is clearly a competition pitting the 175 fleet against the ex-TPE 68s and Mk5 carriages

It has been said that at one point the 175’s had been signed for. Wether or not that is still the case, no one seems totally sure. If they are still signed for then, then it’s can’t be the case.

 

[sd0733]

It has been said that at one point the 175’s had been signed for. Wether or not that is still the case, no one seems totally sure. If they are still signed for then, then it’s can’t be the case.

They're showing on the Angel Trains pdf as up for lease or disposal so unless another lease has been signed since that was put on their site it would seem not now.

https://angeltrains.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Rolling-stock-lease-or-disposal.pdf

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They won’t go to EMR - the mix of 158s and 170s in the regional fleet is an ideal balance for them from a compatibility perspective, a disadvantage of the 175s essentially being a micro fleet.

Completely agree about the compatibility thing and how they wouldn’t work, just one thing:

27 units is not a micro fleet.

5 360s for Heathrow Connect, 6 387s for c2c, 3 230s for LNR, (and similarly 2 150s for LNR today), 2 707s as SWR have had November-this May, now they are all examples of micro fleets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2023 ==

Cannot see the 175 going to EMR, Best chance would be Chiltern, Northern, remain with TfW or Newport Sims

Well no, there’s absolutely no chance of that at all And it’d be return to TfW, not remain with, as they’ve been off lease and disassociated with TfW for a couple of months now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2023 ==

Definitely not us. We looked at them a couple of years ago and ruled them out. There’s many pages about the whys and wherefores elsewhere. The new build will directly replace our 15x fleet, nothing planned to come in in the interim.

Honestly sensible, much as I love the 175s. The best thing that could have happened to Northern did partially happen, a mass replacement of all their many classes with a standard unit (195/331), and I do hope the new build is a compatible similar unit that will continue to standardise their operation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2023 ==

They're showing on the Angel Trains pdf as up for lease or disposal so unless another lease has been signed since that was put on their site it would seem not now.

https://angeltrains.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Rolling-stock-lease-or-disposal.pdf

The fact the 175s is there in that table among all of that rotting, life-expired 70s/80s stock is really rather sad.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Thanks. Presume that would rule out Liverpool to Norwich- the suggestion that won't die (see also 185s, mk5a, etc etc.)?

Give to XC and use some of the 222s when they go off lease

 

[Merle Haggard]

They're showing on the Angel Trains pdf as up for lease or disposal so unless another lease has been signed since that was put on their site it would seem not now.

https://angeltrains.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Rolling-stock-lease-or-disposal.pdf

Perhaps a trivial point, but the list shows all the 175s as 'correctly' formed (i.e. with the last digit of stock numbers matching the one of the units). I thought that a couple had been re-formed.

 

[43096]

Perhaps a trivial point, but the list shows all the 175s as 'correctly' formed (i.e. with the last digit of stock numbers matching the one of the units). I thought that a couple had been re-formed.

Actually, it doesn't. They've got the vehicle numbers wrong for all the 175/0 79xxx cars.

 

[craigybagel]

Am I right in thinking that the 175s can't use SP differentials? Think I recall someone "in the know" saying they could use MU and HST speeds (the latter only up to 100, obviously) but not SP... but it's been a while so I may be misremembering.

Message 1411 in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-175-future-speculation.218095/page-48#post-6466658 says:

To be fair, it wouldn't surprise me if it's more a paperwork issue than anything else as AFAIK there are no SP speeds anywhere on the TfW network, so they're never needed to be cleared for them. When they were first used on the Marches they weren't cleared for MU speeds there either and had to run at the lower speeds (like the 67s do now) until they were cleared later on.
I'm not sure what the exact requirements are to meet SP standards, but they certainly brake better than any Sprinter I've driven....

 

[fgwrich]

The new tender for 65 or 70 vehicles for Chiltern is clearly a competition pitting the 175 fleet against the ex-TPE 68s and Mk5 carriages

And it's pretty obvious it isn't the 175s Chiltern are going for. In any case, as Clarence Yard has hinted at in other threads, they will probably end up with one TOC and that'll be whomever the DfT at the moment decides. Personally, I would like to see them formed into semi fixed 5 car formations, used on Cardiff - Portsmouth to release the 158s to the West, most of the Turbo's to either the West or Christmas Tree's for both GW and Chiltern and base them at St Philips Marsh (to give them a permanent Chester style single depot home and to replace some of the work lost with the HSTs). They may be unpopular with some, but I'd much rather take a 175 than a 165 - ultimately whatever is eventually chosen for the route will replace everything that currently works it (158, 165, 166) but that's still some years off and the GW DMU fleet is being worked hard at the moment.

 

[Elecman]

If they do transfer another TOC and a new depot I hope the new depot has a proper under frame wash like they had at Chester. Which was specifically designed/programmed to wash the under frames but not to wash the areas which were susceptible to water damage . I do wonder if the fire problems encountered at end at Chester were caused by CAF not using the under frame wash plant

 

[Dan G]

And it's pretty obvious it isn't the 175s Chiltern are going for. In any case, as Clarence Yard has hinted at in other threads, they will probably end up with one TOC and that'll be whomever the DfT at the moment decides. Personally, I would like to see them formed into semi fixed 5 car formations, used on Cardiff - Portsmouth to release the 158s to the West, most of the Turbo's to either the West or Christmas Tree's for both GW and Chiltern and base them at St Philips Marsh (to give them a permanent Chester style single depot home and to replace some of the work lost with the HSTs). They may be unpopular with some, but I'd much rather take a 175 than a 165 - ultimately whatever is eventually chosen for the route will replace everything that currently works it (158, 165, 166) but that's still some years off and the GW DMU fleet is being worked hard at the moment.

That would be my dream outcome too.

I imagine the ROSCO of the 68s+5s will be very keen to send them to Chiltern as it's hard to see anyone else operating them

 

[TheWalrus]

That would be my dream outcome too.

I imagine the ROSCO of the 68s+5s will be very keen to send them to Chiltern as it's hard to see anyone else operating them

Surely it would make sense for the mk5s to swap with the current mk3s at Chiltern?

 

[craigybagel]

Surely it would make sense for the mk5s to swap with the current mk3s at Chiltern?

It would. But if there's a cheaper alternative, be that 175 or no replacement at all, you can bet the current regime in the DfT will want to go that way.

 

[RobShipway]

Surely it would make sense for the mk5s to swap with the current mk3s at Chiltern?

It would. But if there's a cheaper alternative, be that 175 or no replacement at all, you can bet the current regime in the DfT will want to go that way.

Since the Chiltern replacement order is to be based in Sunderland as per https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2023/W51/813170912 then why would they use the MK5 sets instead of the MK3's?

The usage of the replacement is only for 12 years, why would that be either the MK5 sets or class 175 units?

 

[Whistler40145]

Since the Chiltern replacement order is to be based in Sunderland as per https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2023/W51/813170912 then why would they use the MK5 sets instead of the MK3's?

The usage of the replacement is only for 12 years, why would that be either the MK5 sets or class 175 units?

Chiltern is a subsidiary company of Arriva, which it’s headquarters are located in Sunderland

 

[TheWalrus]

Chiltern is a subsidiary company of Arriva, which it’s headquarters are located in Sunderland

I was under the impression the tender was for replacement of the 165s but looks like its for the 68s as well. It seems that the Mk5s would be a good replacement for 68s but then again looks like the 68s are on their way out.