Class 175 future speculation

[Dan G]

Would be perfect for GWR's Cardiff-Portsmouth service.

Does Chiltern actually have a need for additional rolling stock? GWR certainly does.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Chiltern is where the DfT would like them to go - GWR have had previous experience of 180’s so are not that keen to take on more engineering trouble. In any event, the train crew training costs for GWR would be huge - they have their eye on the TfW 158’s.

 

[Topological]

Chiltern is where the DfT would like them to go - GWR have had previous experience of 180’s so are not that keen to take on more engineering trouble. In any event, the train crew training costs for GWR would be huge - they have their eye on the TfW 158’s.

158s are the obvious cascade from TfW for GWR, whether they are the optimal for routes like Portsmouth to Cardiff is a different question, but certainly they have the same issues as 175s in terms of boarding speed etc.

Chiltern presumably suffer similar turbo part issues to GWR and so it would make sense to give Chiltern more slack using the 175s. The 175s were perfect for the Marches and it has been so sad watching them suffer TfW neglect. They are a bit short for an operation like Chiltern but even a more convoluted cascade to bring more turbos to Chiltern would still mean multiple units joining together without gangway doors so...

Hopefully the 175s will not be sat insulting those of us crowded onto 150s for 4 hours+ for much longer.

 

[Dan G]

Well indeed given that GWR/predecessors have experience of Coradia 1000s there might even still be drivers and engineers in the company who are familiar with them, unlike Chiltern.

Mind you only the 3-cars would be useful. Not sure anyone wants more 2-car diesels with no gangways.

 

[Mikey C]

Well indeed given that GWR/predecessors have experience of Coradia 1000s there might even still be drivers and engineers in the company who are familiar with them, unlike Chiltern.

Mind you only the 3-cars would be useful. Not sure anyone wants more 2-car diesels with no gangways.

Chiltern already have 2 car 165s and 168s, so they and their customers are used to 2-car 23m units with no gangways! And overcrowding in the unit nearest the Marylebone gateline...

 

[Philip]

The 3 car units would be good for EMR if the Liverpool-Norwich becomes Liverpool-Nottingham, 14 out of 16 units in service each day should cover all diagrams running doubled up.

 

[Dan G]

Would be perfect for GWR's Cardiff-Portsmouth service.

Does Chiltern actually have a need for additional rolling stock? GWR certainly does.

I hadn't noticed this thread below when I posted my reply above

Portsmouth Harbour-Cardiff Central GWR

Does anybody know why it is such a lottery on this line as to how many carriages your train will have. Yesterday I was on the 1023 out of Portsmouth Harbour, a two car. After Southampton Central you could not move for people. Today I notice the 0923 and 1023 are both two car again. So why is...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[MattRat]

Well Chiltern and Northern are looking into tenders for new units, so that decreases the chances of them going there. They might help for GWR, but they might not want them for various reasons. Also GWR might be able to cascade diesel units if they get battery electric trains for some routes.

A curve ball idea might be for Scotrail, given the disastrous failure that is their HST sets.

 

[py_megapixel]

The 3 car units would be good for EMR if the Liverpool-Norwich becomes Liverpool-Nottingham, 14 out of 16 units in service each day should cover all diagrams running doubled up.

As it stands, though, everything in EMR's regional fleet is entirely compatible with everything else, or at least will be once all the various modifications are complete (I'm unsure where they're up to with those), and also compatible with, or at least capable of being coupled to by for the purpose of shoving out of the way, certain other units that run on the same route.

If a hypothetical EMR 175 failed on Castlefield, for example, it'd be very far from its home depot, blocking one of the most congested lines in the country, with the risk that nothing capable of rescuing it would be along for another hour. (I have no idea how this would have been resolved if it had ever happened when they worked for TfW/ATW).

 

[dk1]

The 3 car units would be good for EMR if the Liverpool-Norwich becomes Liverpool-Nottingham, 14 out of 16 units in service each day should cover all diagrams running doubled up.

Hopefully the route will never be split.

 

[Philip]

To suggest an idea for the whole fleet, how about:

10 x 2-car units to Chiltern to be maintained from Ilford, with the 11th 2-car unit also at Ilford as a permanent parts provider. Run 8 in service each day to allow 4 x 4-car diagrams, so that either the LHCS can be scrapped (with some 168 shuffling), or some of the 165s can be withdrawn.

All 3-car units to either Longsight (for EMR or TPE use), Heaton (for Northern), or Polmadie so that ScotRail can cascade some of their HSTs; again with a unit permanently set aside to provide spare parts.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

All 3-car units to either Longsight (for EMR or TPE use)

Given TPE are expected to be getting rid of one of their fleets soon, in part due to driver training, I definitely don't expect that

Heaton (for Northern),

Neptune has told you in the past Northern have no interest in the 175s, and I feel like they would have little interest in training up a whole new fleet when the big DMU replacer is likely closer than 10 years.

 

[Philip]

Given TPE are expected to be getting rid of one of their fleets soon, in part due to driver training, I definitely don't expect that

Neptune has told you in the past Northern have no interest in the 175s, and I feel like they would have little interest in training up a whole new fleet when the big DMU replacer is likely closer than 10 years.

It would only be one depot for some self-contained routes and even with Northern having no interest themselves, if the DfT decides to send a batch there then Northern won't have a big say in the matter.

 

[JonathanH]

10 x 2-car units to Chiltern to be maintained from Ilford, with the 11th 2-car unit also at Ilford as a permanent parts provider.

Ilford? How long does it take to get from Ilford to Marylebone?

At best you have to either go via Ealing and West Ruislip, or somehow find a path to go via South Tottenham, West Hampstead Thameslink and the Neasden Curve. Neither is at all practical for daily transfer.

 

[Neptune]

It would only be one depot for some self-contained routes and even with Northern having no interest themselves, if the DfT decides to send a batch there then Northern won't have a big say in the matter.

Which part of ‘175’s are not coming to Northern’ are you struggling to understand? The DfT will not impose them on us.

We’ve had this for over a year now and funnily enough things are following the exact pattern I have previously told you about. Why do you choose to ignore this?

It’s because of this constant downright rude desire you have to ignore what you’re being told to help you understand the fleet plans that I have stopped giving info on the potential future fleet. I’ve had many PM’s from people expressing disappointment in this when I declared an info block on the new fleet from myself a couple of months ago.

The new Northern fleet thread we have would look completely different if I gave the info I’m allowed to but I refuse to add a sprinkle of what is going on simply because of the attitude you’ve shown towards my fleet posts in the past.

Again, if you want to spend a day shadowing in fleet planning to see a bit of reality then feel free to ask your manager about it. This might help give you a bit more understanding of the situation with the Northern fleet and would instantly put an end to any 175 speculation you wish to put forward.

You probably won’t though as give it a couple of months and you’ll be on about 175’s to Northern again.

 

[Bob Price]

Exactly. Northern have so many different classes right now that adding another one would be ridiculous. If anything they need to be getting rid of classes. I can fully understand why they are looking at standardising.

The only potential option with Chiltern looking for new stock would be GWR, otherwise they are heading for the scrap line.

 

[Anonymous10]

Exactly. Northern have so many different classes right now that adding another one would be ridiculous. If anything they need to be getting rid of classes. I can fully understand why they are looking at standardising.

The only potential option with Chiltern looking for new stock would be GWR, otherwise they are heading for the scrap line.

Well Scotrail is still possible I suppose... we shall see.

 

[RobShipway]

Exactly. Northern have so many different classes right now that adding another one would be ridiculous. If anything they need to be getting rid of classes. I can fully understand why they are looking at standardising.

The only potential option with Chiltern looking for new stock would be GWR, otherwise they are heading for the scrap line.

Unless they go to the scrap, the only places I see the class 175 units going is either possibly Scotrail, but i suspect that is a no or for the class 175 units to go abroad.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It’s because of this constant downright rude desire you have to ignore what you’re being told to help you understand the fleet plans that I have stopped giving info on the potential future fleet.

The forum software has a really useful Ignore option - you can hover over someone's username and click "Ignore", and you won't see their posts ever again. I'd strongly recommend it.

 

[Philip]

@Neptune, I'm not questionioning your job knowledge or status but I haven't asked you to leak details about what the TOC currently has in mind for its future fleet; it isn't supposed to be public knowledge and plans can change at this stage, so until an official public announcement is made I'll continue to suggest Northern as a possible future operator, along with others, when debating this topic.

I've explained my reasoning which I think is logical - Northern have an abundance of 40 year old DMUs and as things stand these will stay for at least another 8-10 years. It's not unreasonable to speculate about taking on a fleet of more modern trains as an interim measure to replace some of the old stuff. Surely this is no different to Chiltern potentially taking on some 175s to replace the 165s or the LHCS, until their own new-build stock arrives?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Northern have an abundance of 40 year old DMUs and as things stand these will stay for at least another 8-10 years.

Actually the first are expected to be headed out in only 5 years.

https://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1701552059164581983?t=Nb3yoen2Kzw-IdQgvSffyA&s=19

New train tender out, aim to have first in service in 2028,

 

[Energy]

10 x 2-car units to Chiltern to be maintained from Ilford

No. Ilford is a long way away and is an EMU depot (voyagers were only an interior refurb there) with little DMU experience. Being a former Bombardier depot they have no experience of Coradia units.

They'd be less suited just on experience alone than Chiltern's own depots.

All 3-car units to either Longsight (for EMR or TPE use)

Not enough for EMR to replace 158s, TPE have enough stock.

if the DfT decides to send a batch there then Northern won't have a big say in the matter.

This does not happen.

The DfT get zero benefit by forcing 175s onto Northern, they'd just make their operation more expensive to run.

It’s because of this constant downright rude desire you have to ignore what you’re being told to help you understand the fleet plans that I have stopped giving info on the potential future fleet. I’ve had many PM’s from people expressing disappointment in this when I declared an info block on the new fleet from myself a couple of months ago.

The new Northern fleet thread we have would look completely different if I gave the info I’m allowed to

The info you gave was really useful, its a shame that another poster chooses to ignore it.

and plans can change at this stage,

It's fairly clear that 175s have been considered and decided no.

Before going out to tender Northern did some consultation with manufacturers, they wouldn't waste staff time and expense on a tender if it was unlikely to go to an order.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The 3 car units would be good for EMR if the Liverpool-Norwich becomes Liverpool-Nottingham, 14 out of 16 units in service each day should cover all diagrams running doubled up.

EMR will have an all Class 170 regional fleet soon. It wouldn't be sensible.
And Chiltern could use them not only for East West Rail and taking the Marston Vale branch off WMT, but cascading some of the 165s over to GWR.

 

[skyhigh]

@Neptune, I'm not questionioning your job knowledge or status but I haven't asked you to leak details about what the TOC currently has in mind for its future fleet; it isn't supposed to be public knowledge and plans can change at this stage, so until an official public announcement is made I'll continue to suggest Northern as a possible future operator, along with others, when debating this topic.

It's more than that though. Decent reliable info is being given and you're effectively sticking your fingers in your ears and going "yeah but I think..."

It gets a little tiring after a while. Neptune is clearly in the know about fleet planning and is crystal clear that 175s will be coming nowhere near the Northern fleet. Why you feel the need to ignore that and continue to make suggestions is beyond me. It's not speculation at that point, it's just fantasy.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

We’ve had this for over a year now and funnily enough things are following the exact pattern I have previously told you about. Why do you choose to ignore this?

It’s because of this constant downright rude desire you have to ignore what you’re being told to help you understand the fleet plans that I have stopped giving info on the potential future fleet. I’ve had many PM’s from people expressing disappointment in this when I declared an info block on the new fleet from myself a couple of months ago.

No. You cannot call people downright rude because someone has forgotten (or even overlooked) information that you, a forumer the same as them, have chosen to give. I haven't quoted the full post but the tone of it really made me wince.

I personally may know you're very much involved, but for all some know, you could be getting your information from a Facebook group! Just because others have continued to propose an idea after another member has poohed it, does not make them "downright rude" for not taking the word of another forumer as 100% set in stone.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

No. Ilford is a long way away and is an EMU depot (voyagers were only an interior refurb there) with little DMU experience. Being a former Bombardier depot they have no experience of Coradia units.

Yes, they are mainly an EMU depot, but they are currently doing heavy work on a couple of 175s, including repairing the fire damaged coaches. However, I do agree with the fact that they shouldn't be maintained there long term.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

EMR will have an all Class 170 regional fleet soon. It wouldn't be sensible.
And Chiltern could use them not only for East West Rail and taking the Marston Vale branch off WMT, but cascading some of the 165s over to GWR.

They won't. It's another of their many original promises that won't come to fruition anymore. They'll now have a bunch of Sprinters in the mix.

 

[AlastairFraser]

They won't. It's another of their many original promises that won't come to fruition anymore. They'll now have a bunch of Sprinters in the mix.

How come? Who's not donated their 170s?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How come? Who's not donated their 170s?

The age old discussion of Liverpool Norwich being split and unsplit and split again, etc. They now need 158s to retain that half of the route.

 

[py_megapixel]

How come? Who's not donated their 170s?

The 170 plans were made assuming that the Liverpool-Nottingham service would transfer to Northern or TPE. Now that it's remaining as a Liverpool-Norwich service with EMR, more DMUs are needed at EMR and there aren't enough 170s to go around.