There is nothing stopping them couple 175s together however if they are only getting the 3 cars then it would be too many carriages. If they were getting both the 3 and 2 car 175s then i could see them couple up a 2 and 3 car.
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Class 175 future speculation
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TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Well, I mean they could well be getting both. Most guards are mentioning GWR. Not many mentions of Chiltern these days.
I hope they do go to GWR. Be a lot easier to still ride them if they are still working services out of Cardiff. It will be odd seeing them with a difference TOC though.
If they did the Taunton/Penzance services perhaps 3 cars would be enough on some and others could double up to make 5 cars.
They could well all be going to the same TOC - it makes sense to withdraw the 2 cars first from TFW so that the remaining diagrams are all 3 car for maximum capacity.
Anonymous10
Established Member
Doubt 3 is enough those trains always seem very busy in Cornwall at summer.
Clearly until we get some form of official confirmation it’s all speculation, but I can see sense in the 175s transferring to GWR. They provide a replacement for the Castle HST fleet, which have been semi-regularly deputising for IET duties but are due to be phased out over the coming 18 months. It might help with fleet flexibility as 158s can possibly be moved around to help on various other services.
I suppose they would be maintained at St Philips Marsh, given this is where the HSTs are currently based.
I suppose they would be maintained at St Philips Marsh, given this is where the HSTs are currently based.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
I know he could have been making it up - though I don’t know why he would - but my guard earlier said all guards were told GWR in a meeting.
Why they’d tell TfW guards that though, I have no clue.
Would be strange to be telling TfW guards.
I could see GWR if the 802s aren't performing as well as expected on short HST duties, I doubt they are management's top pick though.
Timeframe of availability might be the factor in their favour: 175s are becoming available imminently (with some already off-lease), whilst the TfW 158s, which might be considered the other ideal stock to augment GWR’s fleet, not becoming available until a much later date; notwithstanding the differences between GWR and TfW 158s of which I’m aware there are a number.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Personally, anything that puts a stop to what I saw the other day, I’m all for.
Got to Cardiff Central.
The Paddington Carmarthen was 5 cars.
The Swansea Paddington was 5 cars.
The Cardiff Taunton was 9.
I arrived the same time the next day and it was the same.
Got to Cardiff Central.
The Paddington Carmarthen was 5 cars.
The Swansea Paddington was 5 cars.
The Cardiff Taunton was 9.
I arrived the same time the next day and it was the same.
Anonymous10
Established Member
I'm sure the short hsts are based in Plymouth at Laira.
Some definitely spend time there, along with the XC fleet, but I didn’t think they were all there—happy to be corrected though.
Snow1964
Established Member
If sufficient 175s were to move to GWR (and I use if whilst speculative) then could be used on Cardiff-Portsmouth.
Wouldn't then really need the turbos to continue to Fratton, so could move the spare ones to Bristol Metro or Devon where drivers generally already trained anyway.
You are correct that not 100% a 6car route, or more specifically a few stations can only take 5 cars, which would mean a 2car plus 3car coupled. Having said that some platforms only need few extra metres to take unrestricted 6car and might be beneficial to do these anyway as would be lot easier just to have 3car units which could be used in pairs than having to form up trains with a mix of units.
Whistler40145
Established Member
Does GWR still have Class 150s?
Yes, they have a number of 150/2s. Not sure of exact number but feels about 20-ish.
Anonymous10
Established Member
Whistler40145
Established Member
Could the 150s be going with their duties covered by 158s or 175s?
Anonymous10
Established Member
No sorry. The cornish lines some can only take 20m long coaches if in 2 car formation.
Snow1964
Established Member
I think timeframe is the key
A year or two back, GWR thought it could save money and thus keep DfT and Treasury happy by cutting the fleet, but since that decision usage in the South West has grown much more than expected, and now many trains can't cope, even some of the short HSTs which should have gone by the autumn are having to stay a while.
If we were looking at trains available in 18 months time, then there would be much more appropriate choice, but I think it is a case of what is available now, and 175s are about the only short term fix.
From what has been discussed previously, I don't think the reality of staff training should be underestimated. GWR staff remain in dispute with their employer, and one of the reasons the 769 project never happened was because staff training could never begin.
Clearly there were other issues with 769s such as their reliability, and the refusal of ASLEF to approve them as an acceptable workplace, but it doesn't appear to be a short term project to train a lot of maintenance staff and traincrew on new traction.
Do we know whether 175s would be acceptable to the GWR traincrew without modifications?
Whistler40145
Established Member
What's the latest fleet availability?
43096
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Home depot for the GWR and XC HSTs is Laira. There will be some serviced and stabled at other locations, but all heavy maintenance is at Laira.
Eliminating the Castle HSTs may have been credible before May, since there were class 800s spare from the abandoned PAD-BPW-BRI 'superfasts'. However, GWR have now increased their weekday Carmarthen services from one each way to six, which was also reported to have been made possible by those spare 800s. Trying to use the same pool of spare 800s to both take over the CDF-PNZ and increase Carmarthen services seems to be streching the fleet rather thin.
Unfortunately I think a 2+8 IC125 set (23x8 = 184m plus 35.58m of power car = 219.58m) could only just fit in the platforms at Carmarthen meaning a 9-car IET (26x9 = 234m) would probably not fit and the fact passengers need to use a barrow crossing to reach platform 2 probably means overhanging the platform (as the IC125s did at Pembroke Dock etc.) is probably out of the question.
Is that because of some engineering work for MetroWest meaning they are temporaily physically unable to run more 5-car diagrams? Or is it that MetroWest timetable enhancements have already been launched and GWR have taken some of the stock away from Cardiff-Portsmouth to run them?
If it were up to me (and CrossCountry actually had the necessary capacity) I'd split the CDF-PNZ at Taunton again (since if I recall correctly it is all stops Bristol to Taunton via Weston-Super-Mare), time it so it is overtaken by an XC service (so long-distance passengers use XC instead) and use 165s/165s cascaded from CDF-PMH on the Cardiff-Taunton leg.
What about using the 175s to cascade 2-car class 165s to replace 150s in Cornwall? Yes the 165s are 23m vehicles but given they have doors-at-thirds would the doors be platformed even though the nose of the train would be sticking out a bit?
There may be others but I believe it has been mentioned before that the Gunnislake line cannot handle more than 20m carriages, specifically near Calstock. Someone else probably understands better than me what the limitation is so I'm only recalling from a previous posting.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
They’ve done what Virgin CrossCountry did and halved train lengths for double frequency. An extra train per hour now runs between Bristol and Salisbury, utilising the extra stock.
Had GWR been able to retain the 769s, then who knows, perhaps they would have been able to have both.
Interesting proposition with 4-car Voyagers to Edinburgh.
Snow1964
Established Member
GWR did't halve the train lengths, they cut some 5car to 4car (although many were, and still are short formed as 2car and 3car), and few still are 5car
The extra train already operated some peak hour workings, but has now been added all daytime Mon-Fri. Most don't go to Salisbury but terminate at Westbury or Warminster or Frome.
There simply isn't enough 158, 165, 166 to operate them all at full length (strictly there is on paper, provided none need fixing and 100% are available for service), but 100% availability is not realistic with aging 31-34 year old diesel trains.
If GWR get them could be used on either of Cardiff-Portsmouth or Cardiff-Penzance route, but how many would be available is unclear (there were 11 2car and 16 3car, but some are dead). So not really enough to fully convert both unless trains are limited to 3car and pairs of 2car.
12LDA28C
Established Member
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Why would that happen? Chiltern have the 68s until at least May 2024 and won't need any replacements until then.
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Nobody at Chiltern has heard this. Sounds like usual platform-end gibber to me.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Yes, to be honest everyone at Cardiff Central seems to say GWR now.
Anonymous10
Established Member
Given I believe there's a gwr depot there that seems more credible
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Is your sarcasm really necessary? This is a speculative thread, after all.Because drivers obviously know what the owning company is doing with them...
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