Class 175 future speculation

[Philip]

Another consideration; as 175s only use friction brakes now, would they be more suited to services without too many stops, to help reduce wear of the pads?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another consideration; as 175s only use friction brakes now, would they be more suited to services without too many stops, to help reduce wear of the pads?

Most DMUs only use friction brakes.

 

[Philip]

Most DMUs only use friction brakes.

175s used to have and 185s and 195s still do have working hydrodynamic retarder brakes. I'm guessing the 196s and 197s do as well?

 

[sw1ller]

175s used to have and 185s and 195s still do have working hydrodynamic retarder brakes. I'm guessing the 196s and 197s do as well?

197s do above 23mph. Below that is friction brakes. There’s a notable jerk of the train when they switchover. I’ve not driven them since training though, so I don’t know if it can be managed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is discussion of Great Western Railway receiving the 175s not pie-in-the-sky now, considering GWR have suggested that when the knackered Castle sets finally get their comeuppance, existing Diesel Multiple Units and Intercity Express Trains will be shifted around - no mention of additional stock arriving with the TOC was mentioned. Even if the 175s weren't to replace HSTs, rather to work Portsmouth routes or something like that, you'd have thought they'd have mentioned that they'd be getting extra stock in anyway, surely, if not to appease those reading the brief that capacity won't hit an all time low?

 

[xtpe]

I speculate Class 175s to be based at Laira Depot as a replacement of the HST's.

 

[Anonymous10]

I speculate Class 175s to be based at Laira Depot as a replacement of the HST's.

its already confirmed by gwr that existing 80x units will cover for the hst (castle) sets, if they do replace HST it will be xc but i doubt that

 

[LOL The Irony]

I speculate Class 175s to be based at Laira Depot as a replacement of the HST's.

Laira is another lamppost the hitachi mongrel has peed on, so no chance of that happening.

its already confirmed by gwr that existing 80x units will cover for the hst (castle) sets, if they do replace HST it will be xc but i doubt that

2 & 3 car 100mph DMUs replacing 7 carriage 125mph HSTs would probably never happen, especially when several Voyagers are about to go off lease.

 

[Anonymous10]

Laira is another lamppost the hitachi mongrel has peed on, so no chance of that happening.

2 & 3 car 100mph DMUs replacing 7 carriage 125mph HSTs would probably never happen, especially when several Voyagers are about to go off lease.

I am aware you'd have to run them as 3+2+2 or 3+3+2 it was more to give a idea of how unlikely this is now. I am saddened but such is the railway hopefully the 175s find a home they are high end units and only 20 years old

 

[MattRat]

2 & 3 car 100mph DMUs replacing 7 carriage 125mph HSTs would probably never happen, especially when several Voyagers are about to go off lease.

What's even more confusing is that they could have said to replace the XC Turbostars instead, so they can be cascaded elsewhere. It still wouldn't work (too few units), but it would still make more sense than the original post.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don’t think gangways between units are really that much of a problem for passengers - I’m sure most are more bothered about being able to get a seat.

The issue with that argument is that a lack of gangways makes it slightly more difficult to find a seat as you can't walk through to the other part of the train if all the seats are taken where you boarded. However, my main concern is with portion working and short platforms - if the guard comes through a pair of 158s and tells you that you need to move to the other part of the train you can do that - with a pair of 150/1s you wouldn't be able to.

175s will be well suited on Cardiff - Penzance and Cardiff - Portsmouth services, but maybe you’d want to keep them away from the Bristol-Bath corridor at peak times, unless it runs as a 5 car or somehow has more dwell time added to the timetable.

The Cardiff-Portsmouth should be 5-cars throughout with stock designed for long-distance passengers (I don't really mind whether that is 158s or 175s (a 2-car unit coupled to a 3-car) or something like a bi-mode 444). It's not like the Cardiff-Portsmouth has any stops between Bristol and Bath - the London trains also have narrow end doors.

Realistically, I don’t think you can chop out many/any of the stops on the Cardiff - Pompey route. Filton warrants a stop due to the MOD base and the University which sees good usage to/from Wales, and the Portsmouth train connects at Newport with the TfW train to West Wales with passengers from places like Abergavenny and Cwmbran alighting for connections. If you sever the connection, it’ll no doubt push more of these passengers to the road.

Freshford and Avoncliff aren’t a stop on many of the CDF-PMH trains except early mornings and late evenings, and on a few Sunday services.

Bradford-on-Avon is a fairly well used small station so reducing its service to hourly won’t go down well there. Trowbridge is the busiest station between Bath and Salisbury for entries and exits. Westbury has interchanges plus crew changes. Warminster only really has this hourly service plus a few extras.

I think the only regular stops I suggested removing were Cosham and Bradford On Avon - plus maybe Filton and Severn Tunnel Junction if Cardiff-Bristol ends up getting a much more frequent service as the S.E. Wales Metro develops.

I think there are supposed to be more Bristol-Westbury services coming as part of Metro-West, so Freshford, Avoncliff and Bradford On Avon would be served by those.

My main point is to get places like Dilton Marsh their own local services and keep new stations like Cardiff Parkway off the Cardiff-Portsmouth to avoid the dwell times adding up too much.

 

[Philip]

Could Irish Rail make good use of these units and would it be a feasible solution, if none of the English/Scottish companies are interested? The last time I travelled along the Dublin-Rosslare line a few years ago, there were still some rather noisy and uncomfortable suburban DMUs working the route to Rosslare, although the majority of the services were worked by impressive 22000 trains.

Could 175s be modified to the correct gauge and replace some of Ireland's older DMU fleets? Don't forget that Irish Rail were supposedly interested in 185s when it was thought their time with TPE was coming to an end.

 

[JonathanH]

Could Irish Rail make good use of these units and would it be a feasible solution, if none of the English/Scottish companies are interested?

Probably not, no. They going through a programme of bringing in more stock already.

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/abou... Government,carriages began in September 2022

41 New Railcars
In October 2019, the Government approved an order for 41 new railcars. These will be additional 22000-class railcar carriages bringing the overall size of this fleet to 275 railcars.

This represents an investment of €150 million, and the delivery of the carriages began in September 2022.

These new railcars will enter service on the Commuter and Intercity network during 2023, and they will be used to increase capacity and services in the context of post-COVID demand.

Up to 750 Electric / Battery-electric Hybrid Vehicles
In order to support the infrastructural capacity increases delivered by the DART+ Programme, additional rolling stock will be required.

Iarnród Éireann, supported by the NTA, awarded French supplier Alstom the contract to deliver the largest and most sustainable fleet in Irish public transport history in December 2021, for up to 750 electric / battery-electric powered vehicles over a 10-year timescale.

Two orders totalling 185 carriages have been placed to date, comprising six sets of five-carriage conventional electric trains and thirty-one sets of five-carriage battery-electric trains. While purely electrically powered trains are expected to make up the majority of the train orders, these orders will allow Iarnród Éireann to deliver frequency and capacity increases across the network while electrification is being progressed, both in the Greater Dublin Area and potentially in the Cork Commuter area.

As well as the capacity increases that will be delivered through the DART+ Programme and the new DART+ Fleet in the Greater Dublin Area, Intercity carriages currently in use on Commuter services will be cascaded upon arrival of the new electrically-powered trainsets to enhance and strengthen other rail services.

Subsequent orders are intended to be placed in line with the delivery of the DART+ Programme, and in line with requirements for replacement of the original DART fleet (dating from 1984) later in the decade.

Ultimately, the overall order will see the Greater Dublin Area (GDA) total rail fleet and up to 80 percent of all heavy rail journeys in Ireland, set for a potentially emissions-free future.

The DART+ Programme is a revolutionary €2 billion investment under Project Ireland 2040 set to double the capacity and treble the electrification of the Greater Dublin Area network, bringing DART travel with all its benefits to new and existing communities.

You can learn more about the overall DART+ Programme and the new DART+ Fleet on www.dartplus.ie.

Could 175s be modified to the correct gauge and replace some of Ireland's older DMU fleets?

They really wouldn't want them.

 

[craigybagel]

Could 175s be modified to the correct gauge and replace some of Ireland's older DMU fleets? Don't forget that Irish Rail were supposedly interested in 185s when it was thought their time with TPE was coming to an end.

The only DMUs Irish Rail have that are older are the 2600 class, primarily used on suburban services around Cork. A 175 wouldn't be a suitable replacement even if it was an easy and cheap conversion.

If they wanted ~2000 Alsthom DMUs they've had a whole fleet sitting withdrawn in Inchicore rusting away for several years. The fact they were withdrawn so early (along with a similar batch of EMUs) tells you how well they worked out

 

[JonathanH]

The only DMUs Irish Rail have that are older are the 2600 class, primarily used on suburban services around Cork.

...for which the quoted text above suggests they may want to look at battery units as part of their new trains partnership.

 

[craigybagel]

...for which the quoted text above suggests they may want to look at battery units as part of their new trains partnership.

Indeed, though in the short term it seems more likely that the new battery and electric units would make it possible to cascade 29000 class units down to Cork to see off the 2600s. Either way, no need nor use for 175s at Irish Rail.

 

[RobShipway]

I think there is only five likely homes for the class 175:

1) GTR Southern to replace the class 171 units so that they can be converted back to class 170 units and go to the likes of EMR.
2) To replace the Loco Hauled services with Chiltern Railway. (I would imagine whatever replaces the loco hauled services, would also be something that perhaps could be used to replace the class 165 units.)
3) Move to Northern as replacements for class 155 and some class 156 units. (I cannot see this happening, as it would mean that Northern have yet another niche fleet).
4) Move to Scotrail to Replace HST (Although I don't believe there is enough units in the class 175 fleet for this and suspect that whatever replaces the HST fleet, will also replace the class 170 fleet in Scotrail).
5) Move to GWR to replace HST castle units. (Possibly the most likely, although with only having 11 2 car class 175 units, you could only make 11 five car trains. So there would have to be 2 six car trains with two sets of three car class 175 working together, which would leave a spare 3 car class 175 unit.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only significantly likely one is Chiltern.

The replacement of the Castle sets is already dealt with - the 80x not being used on the Bristol superfast.

 

[Minstral25]

I think there is only five likely homes for the class 175:

1) GTR Southern to replace the class 171 units so that they can be converted back to class 170 units and go to the likes of EMR.
2) To replace the Loco Hauled services with Chiltern Railway. (I would imagine whatever replaces the loco hauled services, would also be something that perhaps could be used to replace the class 165 units.)
3) Move to Northern as replacements for class 155 and some class 156 units. (I cannot see this happening, as it would mean that Northern have yet another niche fleet).
4) Move to Scotrail to Replace HST (Although I don't believe there is enough units in the class 175 fleet for this and suspect that whatever replaces the HST fleet, will also replace the class 170 fleet in Scotrail).
5) Move to GWR to replace HST castle units. (Possibly the most likely, although with only having 11 2 car class 175 units, you could only make 11 five car trains. So there would have to be 2 six car trains with two sets of three car class 175 working together, which would leave a spare 3 car class 175 unit.)

1) Not possible - They would not be usable on Uckfield route due to having end doors and thus creating extended dwells at East Croydon which would mean other services needing to be cut to allow platform capacity

5) Already discounted as announced solution is being put in place to withdraw GWR HSTS (Using surplus IETs)

 

[Jez]

Is there any news on when the first 175s are due to leave TFW now that the 197s are starting to be introduced into service. Is the plan for them all to be gone by the December 2023 TT change or is that too realistic given only a few 197s are in service so far?

 

[Caaardiff]

Is there any news on when the first 175s are due to leave TFW now that the 197s are starting to be introduced into service. Is the plan for them all to be gone by the December 2023 TT change or is that too realistic given only a few 197s are in service so far?

For now they will be remaining in the fleet but utilised less in comparison to previous daily usage. They will also be replacing 170's down South first so they can go to EMR.

 

[The Ham]

The only significantly likely one is Chiltern.

The replacement of the Castle sets is already dealt with - the 80x not being used on the Bristol superfast.

However with the ongoing upwards tend in passenger numbers (even with the strikes happening), it could well be that there's a need for additional rolling stock at GWR in (say) 12 to 24 months time. Especially if the strikes are resolved by then (which I hope that they are).

The disposal of the Castles should have be planned for December 2023, but the actual announcement of that being the case should have been held off for as long as possible so that passenger numbers could be monitored to see what they do.

I wouldn't be surprised if we end up finding that the cuts being announced now turn out to be too fast too soon and there's then significant overcrowding within the next 2 years.

 

[craigybagel]

However with the ongoing upwards tend in passenger numbers (even with the strikes happening), it could well be that there's a need for additional rolling stock at GWR in (say) 12 to 24 months time. Especially if the strikes are resolved by then (which I hope that they are).

The disposal of the Castles should have be planned for December 2023, but the actual announcement of that being the case should have been held off for as long as possible so that passenger numbers could be monitored to see what they do.

I wouldn't be surprised if we end up finding that the cuts being announced now turn out to be too fast too soon and there's then significant overcrowding within the next 2 years.

If it turns out GWR do need extra stock post Castle withdrawal - surely they would be more inclined to go for the other medium distance stock that TfW are withdrawing at the same time, namely 158s. Yes they have Perkins engines and ERTMS fitted, but they're still a lot more familiar to GWR than 175s, and are also compatible with their existing 15x fleet.

 

[Philip]

I think there is only five likely homes for the class 175:

1) GTR Southern to replace the class 171 units so that they can be converted back to class 170 units and go to the likes of EMR.
2) To replace the Loco Hauled services with Chiltern Railway. (I would imagine whatever replaces the loco hauled services, would also be something that perhaps could be used to replace the class 165 units.)
3) Move to Northern as replacements for class 155 and some class 156 units. (I cannot see this happening, as it would mean that Northern have yet another niche fleet).
4) Move to Scotrail to Replace HST (Although I don't believe there is enough units in the class 175 fleet for this and suspect that whatever replaces the HST fleet, will also replace the class 170 fleet in Scotrail).

There would need to be a good maintenance arrangement and an available depot to keep reliability up and potentially treat the reported corrosion issues. Northern have Longsight on the doorstep which would be handy as it is Alstom, question is would there be space to maintain the entire fleet there? Perhaps Stockport sidings could used for overnight stabling, Newton Heath for light maintainance (refuelling, cleaning etc) and Longsight for the heavy maintainance.

Do GWR, Chiltern, Southern and ScotRail have suitable maintainance depots for these units, which would be within reach of their respective networks?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're just fancy 156s so I doubt Aylesbury would find them too much different from their usual diet of 165s and 168s.

 

[Energy]

There would need to be a good maintenance arrangement and an available depot to keep reliability up and potentially treat the reported corrosion issues. Northern have Longsight on the doorstep which would be handy as it is Alstom, question is would there be space to maintain the entire fleet there? Perhaps Stockport sidings could used for overnight stabling, Newton Heath for light maintainance (refuelling, cleaning etc) and Longsight for the heavy maintainance.

Do GWR, Chiltern, Southern and ScotRail have suitable maintainance depots for these units, which would be within reach of their respective networks?

Its somewhat useful having an Alstom depot but Longsight is primarily 390 maintenance with other classes only being stabled. A 390 and 175 won't have much in common so I doubt there is any advantage over any other depot.

 

[Philip]

They're just fancy 156s so I doubt Aylesbury would find them too much different from their usual diet of 165s and 168s.

Hardly 'fancy 156s' when they are mechanically different; different engines, transmission, electronics. It's been said that maintainance is particularly critical for these units to prevent them from falling apart basically. Chiltern are not currently planning to get rid of 165s or 168s, whereas Northern have already said they want to start phasing out Sprinters over the next few years, so 175s would be a suitable replacement for some of the Sprinters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2022 ==

Its somewhat useful having an Alstom depot but Longsight is primarily 390 maintenance with other classes only being stabled. A 390 and 175 won't have much in common so I doubt there is any advantage over any other depot.

Don't forget Longsight is already doing some heavy maintenance of the units now, so the staff will have the knowledge.

 

[RobShipway]

Hardly 'fancy 156s' when they are mechanically different; different engines, transmission, electronics. It's been said that maintainance is particularly critical for these units to prevent them from falling apart basically. Chiltern are not currently planning to get rid of 165s or 168s, whereas Northern have already said they want to start phasing out Sprinters over the next few years, so 175s would be a suitable replacement for some of the Sprinters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2022 ==



Don't forget Longsight is already doing some heavy maintenance of the units now, so the staff will have the knowledge.

That is why I suspect they may end up at GWR. Yes, it may have been a few years since any depots at GWR have done any work on very similar class 180 units, but if any of the expertise that was at the GWR Old Oak Common depot has moved over to say the Old Oak Common Hitachi depot or the depot where the Elizabeth line class 345 are stabled, then I suspect that they could end up at GWR, rather than Chiltern.

However, if that OOC expertise went to Wembley to the Chiltern depot to work om the LHS services, then you have there people that had passed knowledge of the similar class 180 units which would be perfect for the maintenance for the class 175 units.

Class 175 units are not good replacements for sprinters. In fact a better replacement would be using the class 195 units in place of the sprinters at Northern.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Class 175 units are not good replacements for sprinters. In fact a better replacement would be using the class 195 units in place of the sprinters at Northern.

I agree - 195s are a better replacement for Sprinters than 175s. Assuming by 'Sprinters' you mean specifically class 150s (and are not including 'Super Sprinters' and 'Express Sprinters' in that) and that said 'Sprinters' (class 150s) are actually being used on routes where 150s are appropriate.

150s are (often?) the booked stock on services they really shouldn't be used on. For example, the Fishguard-Cardiff express boat train was booked for a 150 for many years under ATW - a class 175 would have been a massively more appropriate train for that working than the 150 but ATW just couldn't spare a 175 for it. So really the point should be something along the lines of: "Class 175s are not a good choice of unit for routes where a class 150 would be appropriate". It's the characteristics of the route that should be important, not what is currently working the route. Long-distance, limited-stop, services* are where the 175s would be a good fit.

* similar to the Swansea-Manchester route they currenly ply for TfW - it's just unfortunate that TfW don't have enough 175s to provide the necessary capacity on this route given the other similar routes in the franchise

 

[busestrains]

The most sensible place for the 175s is Northern Rail who have a massive fleet of 150/153/155/156/158 trains still in service. So sending the entire fleet of 175s to Northern Rail would allow a good amount of Sprinters to finally be withdrawn.

Sending the 175s to Chiltern Railways or Southern Rail would be a disaster. These railways use their fleets of 165/166/170/171/172 on busy services packed with commuters with frequent stops. So they really require 170/185 style trains with wide double doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions. So i do not think sending them to Chiltern Railways or Southern Rail would be good.

Sending them to SWT to replace the 158/159 would be an option too but not really ideal as SWT really needs a fleet of 170/185 style trains with wide double doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions. The current 158/159 are bad enough at SWT with very long dwell times and a very unsuitable layout for the type of work they are used on. So the 175s could be sent to SWT and would be a small improvement on the 158/159 but ideally they just need some new trains with wide double doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions.

Scotrail is an option too and is probably the second best option if Northern Rail do not take them. I think the 175s would be a great replacement for the 156/158 on the lines up to, Fort William, Kyle Of Lochalsh, Mallaig, Oban, Thurso, Wick, etc. Scotrail have a large fleet of 156/158 that really need replacing and are very unsuitable for these scenic routes so sending the 175s to Scotrail is a good option too i think.

But i think the best option would be Northern Rail who have the largest Sprinter fleet and could really do with having these trains.