Anonymous10
Established Member
to be fair to the 175s that issue has since died down
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Class 175 future speculation
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Philip
On Moderation
If 175s go to Northern then surely they'll be a direct replacement for all of the 156s, along with some 195s which in turn could replace some 150s?
Indeed. And they're certainly not going to be especially good at serving Warrington Central - Birchwood - Irlam - Urmston - Manchester Oxford Road - Manchester Piccadilly. Five stops in just over half an hour. Wheras a pair of 185s can do that flawlessly.
All of the 156s? How would that work when Northern have 52 class 156s (104 carriages) and there are only 27 class 175s in total (70 carriages)? In any case, assuming Northern's 150s are being deployed on routes where they are suitable, then 195s would be a more-appropriate replacement for the 150s than 156s are.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
To be fair they go like absolute stink, though if they get overcrowded dwells will be long.
I agree - I think GWR ought to be looking for some additional 158s or some 175s for their Cardiff - Penzance and Cardiff - Portsmouth services, at least in the short term until they decide what’s going to replace all those Sprinters and Turbos.
The number of short forms currently suggests GWR is stretched with its fleet, and replacing the Castles with Class 800s may reduce flexibility in being able to find a replacement unit to cover a faulty unit on a service to/from London Paddington. 175s and 158s offer an acceptable experience for customers making longer distance journeys in my opinion. It would also allow for GWR to run some more Turbos on the Exeter local services.
RobShipway
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Many of the stops that the Cardiff - Portsmouth services provide in certain areas, are pretty much local services where you would want something like a Class 165/166 operating the service rather than the class 175 with it's end doors.
It is more likely that the class 175 units could replace the Castle HST units or as you say do the Northern Barrow - Windermere route where I think that they would be perfect for to be honest.
As I have stated above, I think that the Cardiff - Portsmouth services should actually stay as being Turbos. But I agree that GWR, should be either seeing if they can lease more class 158 units, so that helps release two car class 165 turbos to replace the class 150 units. That having been said, should the class 769 units come into service then you would have class 165/166 units that could then move to Exeter that could then be used to replace the class 150 units.
No
Anonymous10
Established Member
apart from chiltern having them named in their franchise plan which people believe could have been a typo the main speculation is gwr or northern excluding chiltern
How else would you get from Cardiff or Bristol to the Southampton/Portsmouth area? The GWR Cardiff-Portsmouth service is clearly the nearest thing to an express/InterCity service on that corridor. Yes, there are some odd local stops in there like Dilton Marsh (and perhaps they need only stop at one of Cosham or Fareham rather than both) but with the released Turbos perhaps GWR/SWR (franchise siloing really working against common sense here) could put on regular Swindon-Westbury-Salisbury-Romsey-Eastleigh-Southampton services to handle that stop.
I agree, the 175s and 158s are a better choice for passengers making longer journeys, which is why I think there should be 175s or 158s on the Cardiff-Portsmouth.
However, I actually think the Turbos would be reasonable fit for replacing the Castle HSTs (at least towards the north end of their run). Yes; Cardiff-Penzance is a long way but (unlike the Cardiff-Portsmouth) if I understand correctly it replaced the Cardiff-Taunton service so is a slow winding local service (via Weston-Super-Mare) and I'm surprised it isn't overtaken by XC services. Personally I think I would reconfigure it as a Worcester/Cheltenham/Gloucester to Exeter/Paignton/Plymouth stopper (run by Turbos, with) which is overtaken by XC services on-route (so long-distance passengers would use XC for at least part of their journey - need to get XC some more stock though).
In other words, the Cardiff-Penzance makes a lot more local stops than the Cardiff-Portsmouth does; the Castle HSTs are effectively working a long rambling regional service (like self-contained workings on the Cambrian Coast or a much busier version of the Heart Of Wales) while the Cardiff-Portsmouth a regional express like the Cambrian Main Line (yes, it serves locals stations like Bow Street because it has to (there's nothing else that could do it) but where possible it runs fast).
Okay I'll come back in a couple of months and ask the same question when we're on page 50...
They do seem to be the forum's favourite homeless train at the moment. I haven't seen any real speculation about where the TfW 158s will go to, for example! I suspect my answer on page 50 will be the same!Okay I'll come back in a couple of months and ask the same question when we're on page 50...
RobShipway
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The class 158's are about 33 years old, which is why I would suspect that you would want those being replaced. Yes, the class 165 are only about 2 - 3 years younger, but there is more off them in the GWR fleet.
Yes, there is about 17 HST sets with one spare class 43. However, even though there is 18 class 158 units currently in the GWR fleet, to replace the HST's you would want them working in pairs, so you would actually be giving a reduced service. You also have to remember that the 2 car class 165 units will be going westbound to replace the class 150 units. So whereas the class 165/166 units doing the Cardiff - Portsmouth service currently operate as a five car train, that most likely will eb down to just the three car class 166 units. Whereas you have 16 three car class 175 units and 11 class 175 2 car units. Now each HST set has four coaches, with your suggestion of replacing these Turbos there would not be enough with the services that the Turbos currently do outside of doing the Cardiff - Portsmouth service to replace the HST Castle trains. There would be enough with the class 175 fleet though, although it would not be 4 coach trains on every service. Some services would be five coaches with the 2 car and 3 car class 175's doing a service together, the other services would be three car.
Now you also have to bear in mind that with GWR using either class 175 or class 185 that driver training would need to take place. Do we know how many class 185 units are going spare?
It could be that GWR get both the class 175 and class 185 units. The class 175 units as I say above replace the HST castle units and the class 185 replace the turbo's on the Cardiff - Portsmouth route. Although, using the Class 185 units on the Cardiff - Portsmouth route the service may have to be ended at Portsmouth & Southsea rather than Portsmouth Harbour, as I am not sure that the pier area of Portsmouth Harbour station would be able to take the weight of the class 185 units.
QSK19
Member
I’d say the 222s probably follow closely behind!
I say this next bit in jest, but the 175s should go to XC given that they seem to be the RF community’s TOC of choice to dump to-be homeless stock onto which is inappropriate for the needs of the TOC
Snow1964
Established Member
There are plenty of Wessex workings (services to Worcester, Great Malvern, Westbury, Frome etc) where they could easily supplement the current 158, 165, 166 mix. Wessex is one of the areas with growth and overcrowding on a number of services
Also with 11 x 2car and 16 x 3car units it would be easy to operate them as 5car (and allow the short formed workings to return to 4 or 5 car). There is of course supposed to be extra services in Bristol metro area (although now deferred to 2023 due to lack of rolling stock).
The only question mark would be dwell times with the end doors, but if that was a major problem the 158s would have left the area too, only really a problem at places like Bath Spa due to churn (but they are also served by 800s with end doors), less of a problem when trains are at least 5cars long as don’t have people crowded in vestibules. So in some ways the door problem is a result of short formations.
But if Wessex did get them, probably be a shortened life as bound to be replaced same time as 158, 165, 166 fleets (probably about 6-8 years time).
Well in that case, I think they should go to Lumo, or perhaps they could be converted for the Bakerloo lineI’d say the 222s probably follow closely behind!
I say this next bit in jest, but the 175s should go to XC given that they seem to be the RF community’s TOC of choice to dump to-be homeless stock onto which is inappropriate for the needs of the TOC
irish_rail
On Moderation
You miss the point on the Cardiff Penzance route and that is the long journey times between Exeter and Penzance. Plenty of people are making journies of over an hour and in many cases two. It needs a better train than a Turbo on that section. 175s would be fine on Exeter to PZ id say. Be wasted on Pompey to Cardiff and the longer dwell times would cause issues as others have alluded to.
Philip
On Moderation
Northern is the most logical place at this point as they could replace a sizeable number of the Sprinter fleet which Northern want rid of within the next 10 years. They could either go to Longsight/Newton Heath/Ardwick and work the services to Barrow, Windermere, Chester (via Northwich), Southport and Clitheroe; or they could go to Heaton and replace 156s/158s on regional express services across the North East. If Chiltern decide to offload some 168s to Northern then 175s to Chiltern would make sense, but at this point it would be inefficient sending only a handful there just to replace the LHCS sets.
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Absolutely, through traffic on the expanded through services from Cardiff to Penzance has grown. Bridgwater to Plymouth, Truro to Cardiff, Liskeard to Bristol etc are not short trips.
When Cullumpton and Wellington are expected to open in a few years time, the through trains are likely to be stepped up to hourly through the day (few Taunton terminators). 13 out of 16 3-car 175s diagrammed daily would be suitable, though GWR may prefer the TfW 158s to avoid adding another type.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Maybe nowhere.
In its piece on the launch of the 197s this week, Railway Gazette says there are high levels of corrosion on the 175 fleet which means expensive work for a future operator.
Soft launch for Transport for Wales Class 197 DMUs
UK: The first of the 77-strong fleet of Class 197 diesel multiple-units entered service with Transport for Wales Rail on November 14. Without any pre-announcement or ceremony, unit 197 004 carried its first passengers on the 05.30 from Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog, spending the rest...
Note that my suggestion for the Cardiff-Penzance was to
This would leave the final section from Plymouth to Penzance to be served by a seperate service, which could be an Exeter-Penzance as you suggest (and, I'd agree that a better train than a Turbo would be welcome on that).
I disagree, Exeter to Penzance is about 3hrs; only about 15min longer than Portsmouth to Bristol and Portsmouth to Cardiff is nearer 3hrs 30mins. Regional express standard stock (eg. 158s or 175s) is equally important on both Exeter-Penzance and Cardiff-Portsmouth and therefore the 175s wouldn't be wasted on either. It's just that I would tend towards 175s on Cardiff-Portsmouth and 158s on Exeter-Penzance (rather than the other way around) because the Pompey route already has an interuption in the train (thanks to the non-gangwayed Turbos) whereas the Cornish mainline has the Castle HSTs which are gangwayed throughout.
As for dwell times, as others have also pointed out:
Dwell times add up if you are stopping every 5 minutes or less and many of the stations are busy, on an InterCity service you are not stopping every 5 minutes so a few long dwells doesn't matter (at least to the passenger) as long as they are allowed for in the timetable (so punctuality is not impacted). Ar regional express (like the Cardiff-Portsmouth) is similar except that it might be the only service on a given section of route meaning it has to call at local stations on that section but in that case the stations are normally relatively quiet so the dwells don't get all that long anyway especially if, as Snow1964 said, the service is not crowded.
If the railway is going to start saying that everything calling at a busy station like Bath, Bristol or Cardiff has to have short dwell times then InterCity and Inter-Urban travel by public transport is effectively dead since you will need to cut legroom, toilets, luggage space etc. on what are currently InterCity services in order to have wider doors-at-thirds instead of the doors the 800s have.
I agree, those are long runs. However, as I wrote previously I envisage the stoppers via Weston-Super-Mare being overtaken by fast (probably XC) services which I assume passengers making those long journeys would therefore change onto the fasts for a good part of their journey. As such, the fast (probably XC) services absolutely do need something like a 158/175 (or better).
TfW has Perkins engined 158s and GWR apparently have deliberately standardised on Cummins ones. Northern are also reportedly looking for more ETCS-compatible units with the TransPennine route upgrade coming. As such, if we are to entertain TfW's flawed plan to ditch the 158s, it would make more sense for them to go to Northern with Cummins units moving from Northern to GWR as a result.
Didn't the recent refurbishment the 175s went through at Widnes include corrosion repairs?
Yes, it’s no secret GWR would prefer more Cummins 158s, however, they have the Perkins 165/166 fleet, so are very familiar with the product.
Following the autum statement confirming Core NPR, there will be a cost-saving option on the table to delay ETCS for TransPennine until the Marsden to Manchester tunnel.
tbtc
Veteran Member
HOUSE!
Logical to you, maybe, but I keep trying to explain that end doored 100mph trains are not what Northern is short of, especially as replacements for the (mid door, fast accelerating, 75mph 150s that are able to soak up passengers at Castlefield etc)
Before suggesting Northern as a dumping ground for any stock, I wish people would ask themselves “CIROTCLCS” (“could it run on the CLC stoppers” - i.e. the half hourly Oxford Road - Warrington Central - Lime Street trains), because that’s what Northern needs
Convoluted cascades that try to have 175s replace 158s so that those end doored trains can run on routes like the CLC just create more problems than they solve - there’s already enough “fast” stock, and 158s struggle when dumped on slow services to cover for the lack of 150s (we’ve already seen the problems of putting the 100mph on the Harrogate stoppers!)
Just because they ran to Barrow/ Windermere twenty years ago, people seem obsessed with reuniting them
Which Southport service; the one with twenty stops between Oxford Road and Southport or the one currently run by bi-mode trains due to the electrification south of Manchester?
Northwich and the Rochdale - Clitheroe services are both local stoppers
If the numbers match perfectly then that at least ties a round peg to a round hole, given that there are no 150s etc in that neck of the woods
However I don’t know the PVR, and it’d be frustrating to have just a handful of 175s left over, or just a handful of Sprinters needed on top of the twenty seven 175s
It’s funny how all of your suggestions essentially boil down to “Wales gets end doored trains” (and other lines in the UK get the stock that you don’t like)
Re the above two comments, it may be true that the managers running the day to day operation have expressed a preference, but they have no power, it’s all down to branches of Government and where they decide resources can go, there’s no “want” any more, there’s just what the unaccountable Government decide to allocate - we need to get used to this (even if it means accepting that mid life stock will be scrapped or some services will be culled)
The nature of the contacts mean that First/ Arriva/ Abellio etc are paid to do what the Government demand, there’s no point rocking the boat or making demands, it’s a case of “deliver what we tell you to, and wheesht”
Like with Brexit etc, this might not be the nationalisation that campaigners claim that they wanted but it’s the version we’ve got
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Northern has one class of stock that makes sense on the CLC stoppers - Class 195. Thus anything that can release those units for Manchester locals (Marple/Rose Hill too) is useful.
There are only two other classes that are suitable for that - 172 and 196 - and neither is spare.
There are only two other classes that are suitable for that - 172 and 196 - and neither is spare.
zwk500
Veteran Member
Electrification both ways to New Mills Central maybe?
Might find a use for that other chestnut, the 379s279s are up there....
QSK19
Member
That DEMU is definitely without a home
Haha.... Fat fingers strike again lol.... 379s even!That DEMU is definitely without a home
Even if Heaton received the 175s they would still require 2 fleets. If my workings out are correct Heaton currently has 21 unit diagrams which spend most / all of the day in the North East (not counting the units diagrammed for Maintenance at Heaton). Next year you will have the Northumberland line which will need an extra 3 or 4 depending on what paths / turnarounds are on offer which takes us to 24 / 25. Then there's still an ambition for extra services down the Durham Coast which are packed on a weekend
Outside of the North East, Heaton supply at least 10 / 11 156's for the Cumbrian Coast / Morecambe Shuttles. A couple of the Morecambe diagrams can probably be shifted to the North West but Carlisle seems a logical place for unit swaps especially if one needs a little more attention more urgently than normal. Then finally 5/6 158 diagrams for the Leeds - Lancaster / Carlisle jobs which could potentially be switched to Neville Hill like they were prior to 2019 but it would have to wait until after the TRU works as depot space is already limited
The wildcard would be IF the Hydrogen units actually do come on board in 2024 but things have gone deathly quiet on that
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