Class 175 future speculation

[class397tpe]

Even if the class 180 carriages are compatible with the class 175 units, you only have 11 carriages to add to 27 trains.

I mean 11 is the exact number of 2-car 175s, so would create a fleet of 27 3-cars.

 

[krus_aragon]

Even if the class 180 carriages are compatible with the class 175 units, you only have 11 carriages to add to 27 trains.

I'm not following your numbers here. Overlooking the lack of plug-and-play compatability, there are 14 180s, not 11. There are 27 of the 175s, 11 of which are 2-car units.

 

[class397tpe]

I'm not following your numbers here. Overlooking the lack of plug-and-play compatability, there are 14 180s, not 11. There are 27 of the 175s, 11 of which are 2-car units.

I think they were referring to the centre cars out of just the 4 EMR units - which are 3x 5-car and 1x 4-car, so 11 centre cars total.

 

[RobShipway]

I think they were referring to the centre cars out of just the 4 EMR units - which are 3x 5-car and 1x 4-car, so 11 centre cars total.

Correct I was as I do not believe that Grand Central will be releasing their units anytime soon.

 

[krus_aragon]

Ah. I'd discounted the possibility of referring to 180 centre cars as 11 is a prime number and obviously not a multiple.

I wasn't aware that one of them had been truncated (though I've now found details here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-180110-now-a-4-car-set.222554/ ).

 

[Rhydgaled]

Can carriages from 180s be inserted into 175s or are they completely different? I’m guessing there won’t be anyone in a rush for the remaining 180s once EMR are finished with them.

Even if the class 180 carriages are compatible with the class 175 units, you only have 11 carriages to add to 27 trains.

I can't see where you get 11 carriages from.

I think they were referring to the centre cars out of just the 4 EMR units - which are 3x 5-car and 1x 4-car, so 11 centre cars total.

Ah, I didn't realise there was a 4-car unit - isn't the 5th car from that set being repaired though, which would make 12 centre cars assuming Grand Central don't just snap up the extra units when EMR are finished with them?

 

[RobShipway]

I can't see where you get 11 carriages from.

Ah, I didn't realise there was a 4-car unit - isn't the 5th car from that set being repaired though, which would make 12 centre cars assuming Grand Central don't just snap up the extra units when EMR are finished with them?

I think that it is more likely, that Grand Central will snap up the EMR class 180's even if it is just for spare parts. That will still leave the class 175 units as being 11 two car units and 16 e car units.

I am also suspecting that the carriage from 180110 is not being repaired, as I believe the damage was enough that repairs would not be possible? But maybe, someone with more info can let us know?

 

[QSK19]

I think that it is more likely, that Grand Central will snap up the EMR class 180's even if it is just for spare parts. That will still leave the class 175 units as being 11 two car units and 16 e car units.

I am also suspecting that the carriage from 180110 is not being repaired, as I believe the damage was enough that repairs would not be possible? But maybe, someone with more info can let us know?

It’s already been discussed elsewhere on RF that EMR’s 180s may be kept on as peak time crowd busters because they under-ordered on 810s. And last time I spoke to EMR crew (who happened to be working on 110), the plan was for the fifth car to be repaired and returned; but then again, onboard crews may not know absolute insider information.

Either way, I’m sure the 175s will find a home to go to. It’ll probably end up being EMR given that they seem to be the dumping ground for cascaded stock built in the 1999-2004 timeframe. We’ve seen it with the 170s, 180s and 360s; so that trend may as well continue!

 

[Trainbike46]

It’s already been discussed elsewhere on RF that EMR’s 180s may be kept on as peak time crowd busters because they under-ordered on 810s. And last time I spoke to EMR crew (who happened to be working on 110), the plan was for the fifth car to be repaired and returned; but then again, onboard crews may not know absolute insider information.

Either way, I’m sure the 175s will find a home to go to. It’ll probably end up being EMR given that they seem to be the dumping ground for cascaded stock built in the 1999-2004 timeframe. We’ve seen it with the 170s, 180s and 360s; so that trend may as well continue!

I wouldn't call EMR taking on the 170s a dumping ground situation tbh, and until the current EMR maintenance situation arose the 360s were very reliable.

But in any case, would 175s be an option for the Liverpool-Norwich service, as that's staying with EMR?
Not my favourite solution to that problem to be honest (which would be using the extra GA 755s plus a few extra ordered to make up the numbers, crewed by GA east of Peterborough and maintained at Crown Point, making it a GA and EMR joint service, or even a GA only service). Though realistically the solution will be retaining the 158s for that service, right?

 

[43102EMR]

It’s already been discussed elsewhere on RF that EMR’s 180s may be kept on as peak time crowd busters because they under-ordered on 810s. And last time I spoke to EMR crew (who happened to be working on 110), the plan was for the fifth car to be repaired and returned; but then again, onboard crews may not know absolute insider information.

Either way, I’m sure the 175s will find a home to go to. It’ll probably end up being EMR given that they seem to be the dumping ground for cascaded stock built in the 1999-2004 timeframe. We’ve seen it with the 170s, 180s and 360s; so that trend may as well continue!

It’s been confirmed in Modern Railways that the 180s are being retained and 110’s fifth carriage will be repaired and returned to service ASAP.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s been confirmed in Modern Railways that the 180s are being retained and 110’s fifth carriage will be repaired and returned to service ASAP.

Actually confirmed? I had only read in Modern Railways that EMR were considering retaining them alongside the Auroras as extra, but not guaranteed.

 

[RobShipway]

Actually confirmed? I had only read in Modern Railways that EMR were considering retaining them alongside the Auroras as extra, but not guaranteed.

If it is in print in Modern Railways, then it is pretty much confirmation in the eyes many........

 

[43102EMR]

Actually confirmed? I had only read in Modern Railways that EMR were considering retaining them alongside the Auroras as extra, but not guaranteed.

 

[anamyd]

Can carriages from 180s be inserted into 175s or are they completely different? I’m guessing there won’t be anyone in a rush for the remaining 180s once EMR are finished with them.

175 vehicles have 450hp 14-litre N14 engines and 180 vehicles have 750hp 19-litre QSK19 engines. That would be a huge power mismatch (or at least if nothing was done about it - I wonder if the 180 vehicles would be a lot more reliable with their engines detuned )

 

[anamyd]

Even if the class 180 carriages are compatible with the class 175 units, you only have 11 carriages to add to 27 trains.

11 carriages would actually be the exact amount needed to make the 11 2-car 175s into 3-cars though, although each one would need to have their engine detuned from 750hp to 450hp.

 

[LOL The Irony]

175 vehicles have 450hp 14-litre N14 engines and 180 vehicles have 750hp 19-litre QSK19 engines. That would be a huge power mismatch (or at least if nothing was done about it - I wonder if the 180 vehicles would be a lot more reliable with their engines detuned )

11 carriages would actually be the exact amount needed to make the 11 2-car 175s into 3-cars though, although each one would need to have their engine detuned from 750hp to 450hp.

You could always fit them with N14s if you could find a sufficient number, allowing those 11 QSK19s to go into the spares pool.

 

[anamyd]

You could always fit them with N14s if you could find a sufficient number, allowing those 11 QSK19s to go into the spares pool.

how easy are they to find though? as far as I know only the 175s use them, assuming they're a "rail version" and not just the same as the ones that were put in 95XFs.

 

[tomuk]

how easy are they to find though? as far as I know only the 175s use them, assuming they're a "rail version" and not just the same as the ones that were put in 95XFs.

Also don't any rail retrofits have to be euro 3 these days I'm nt sure the N14 qualifies. What about the gearboxes too aren't the Voiths three speed in the 180s.

 

[LOL The Irony]

how easy are they to find though? as far as I know only the 175s use them, assuming they're a "rail version" and not just the same as the ones that were put in 95XFs.

That would of course, be the silver bullet.

Also don't any rail retrofits have to be euro 3 these days I'm nt sure the N14 qualifies.

As long as the engines were built before a certain date, they don't have to be euro 3. It's how GBRf had those extra 66s built.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

The rather excellent North Wales Coast railway website has this interesting paragraph on this weeks notice board....

Out of the blue (thanks to Eryl Crump for spotting it) comes a new open-access railway company, based in Rhyl: Clwydian Railways, proposing to lease Class 175 units and run between Bangor and London Marylebone, calling via Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint, Shotton, Chester, Shrewsbury, Telford, Wolverhampton & Banbury . It will, they day, start with a service four times a day in both directions. The sole officer of the company is a Jeremy Robert Jasper, born 1992, who is known as a designer of rolling stock for train simulators.

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

 

[Neptune]

The rather excellent North Wales Coast railway website has this interesting paragraph on this weeks notice board....

Out of the blue (thanks to Eryl Crump for spotting it) comes a new open-access railway company, based in Rhyl: Clwydian Railways, proposing to lease Class 175 units and run between Bangor and London Marylebone, calling via Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint, Shotton, Chester, Shrewsbury, Telford, Wolverhampton & Banbury . It will, they day, start with a service four times a day in both directions. The sole officer of the company is a Jeremy Robert Jasper, born 1992, who is known as a designer of rolling stock for train simulators.

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

Already being discussed here:-

Clwydian Railways - New open access operator between Wales & Marylebone

https://clwydianrailways.com/ They plan on linking North Wales with Marylebone, via Shrewsbury, Wolverhampton and Banbury. Quite an interesting bid. Does anyone know if any documents have been submitted yet? Edit: Appears no ORR application yet, https://clwydianrailways.com/media After...

www.railforums.co.uk

The long and short of it appears to be that it is someone’s fevered imagination and they’ve made the mistake of blurting it out loud.

 

[Philip]

Are there any other Alstom depots which would be suitable as a main depot for these units once they leave Chester? Longsight must have the facilties but I've read before that there isn't enough space. Is an Alstom depot even necessary?

 

[Wolfie]

Are there any other Alstom depots which would be suitable as a main depot for these units once they leave Chester? Longsight must have the facilties but I've read before that there isn't enough space. Is an Alstom depot even necessary?

Look at what happened to the 180s with non-Alstom maintenance....

 

[Philip]

Look at what happened to the 180s with non-Alstom maintenance....

Surely Siemens Ardwick could take on the maintenance or at least some of it if there is space, considering how well they maintain the 185s which are similar trains?

Is there capacity at Ardwick and Longsight for both depots to share the maintenance and main stabling points for the fleet?

 

[RobShipway]

Where are the Grand Central Class 180's maintained? Surely, the class 175 units can be maintained at the same depot?

 

[zwk500]

Where are the Grand Central Class 180's maintained? Surely, the class 175 units can be maintained at the same depot?

Well the GC 180s will be maintained on the ECML, so are the 175s going to be working anywhere nearby?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Where are the Grand Central Class 180's maintained? Surely, the class 175 units can be maintained at the same depot?

Heaton (Newcastle) and Crofton (Wakefield) I think. Neither were Alstom depots until the Bombardier merger, when Crofton became an Alstom facility.

 

[507020]

Heaton (Newcastle) and Crofton (Wakefield) I think. Neither were Alstom depots until the Bombardier merger, when Crofton became an Alstom facility.

Did any other Bombardier depots become Alstom depots which may now be able to maintain the 175s? All of this could have been prevented if CAF just built their own depot for the 197s. Why not one adjacent to their facility at Newport for example?

 

[BayPaul]

Did any other Bombardier depots become Alstom depots which may now be able to maintain the 175s? All of this could have been prevented if CAF just built their own depot for the 197s. Why not one adjacent to their facility at Newport for example?

Because the 197s are replacing the 175s,so it makes most sense for them to also take over the depot. There will no longer be any use for the 175s in Chester, so why keep then based there?

 

[507020]

Because the 197s are replacing the 175s,so it makes most sense for them to also take over the depot. There will no longer be any use for the 175s in Chester, so why keep then based there?

The depot at Chester was purpose built for 175s, so with that unavailable the 175s reliability will suffer with no consensus on where they should be maintained in future. Holyhead and Milford Haven are quite far away to work from a depot in Chester though, as was Windermere.