Class 175 future speculation

[LOL The Irony]

70 175 vehicles to replace 24 Mark 3s is overkill on any scale, particularly as the Mark 3s dont exactly work intensive diagrams.

Yes of course. I was posting this on a Pendolino whilst using mobile data, so didn't read it properly.

 

[Energy]

70 175 vehicles to replace 24 Mark 3s is overkill on any scale, particularly as the Mark 3s dont exactly work intensive diagrams.

Replace the mk3 sets: 4x2+3 cars
Replace the 172s lost: 4x2 cars
That leaves 3 2 car and 12 3 car units for growth and to deal with Chiltern's pre covid overcrowding. Also they had 8 68s to allow for maintenance, this would need to be the same for DMUs.

While the remaining units for growth is generous they would likely be off lease if Chiltern didn't take all of them.

 

[43096]

Replace the mk3 sets: 4x2+3 cars
Replace the 172s lost: 4x2 cars
That leaves 3 2 car and 12 3 car units for growth and to deal with Chiltern's pre covid overcrowding. Also they had 8 68s to allow for maintenance, this would need to be the same for DMUs.

While the remaining units for growth is generous they would likely be off lease if Chiltern didn't take all of them.

Or they could replace some 168s which can then go elsewhere. A 168/170 is far more flexible in deployment (eg to Northern) as they already have the type so it’s not creating a new microfleet.

 

[the sniper]

If Chiltern are having some of them, in order to keep them all in the same area, why not use the remainder on EWR? The 196s can all go to the Midlands as originally intended. As it'll almost be GBR time by the time EWR opens, Chiltern and EWR could be merged into one unit. 175s would surely be well suited to the EWR route.

 

[Philip]

Replace the mk3 sets: 4x2+3 cars
Replace the 172s lost: 4x2 cars
That leaves 3 2 car and 12 3 car units for growth and to deal with Chiltern's pre covid overcrowding. Also they had 8 68s to allow for maintenance, this would need to be the same for DMUs.

While the remaining units for growth is generous they would likely be off lease if Chiltern didn't take all of them.

It has been suggested in the past that Chiltern might even not replace the 68s at all and instead stretch the 168 fleet to cover for them. Whilst I think the 68s will be replaced, it does suggest that there are unlikely to be extra units beyond LHCS replacement.

The 180s are an even smaller fleet and these have been split for years; the 175s could follow the same route, it'd be more useful than having loads sat spare at a Chiltern maintenance depot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2022 ==

If Chiltern are having some of them, in order to keep them all in the same area, why not use the remainder on EWR? The 196s can all go to the Midlands as originally intended. As it'll almost be GBR time by the time EWR opens, Chiltern and EWR could be merged into one unit. 175s would surely be well suited to the EWR route.

But EWR are planning to use 196s, so unless that changes then 175s will have no use there. It's also likely that any incoming stock on both EWR and Chiltern will need to converted to hybrid battery operation within the next few years. Would this be as straightforward on 175s as it would Turbostars and Civities?

 

[the sniper]

But EWR are planning to use 196s, so unless that changes then 175s will have no use there.

Hence why I said the 196s can all go to the Midlands as originally intended. They'll probably all be needed there by 2024 (or within a few years) for capacity.

 

[IanXC]

Mentioned before. How can 27 units be used on 46 diagrams.

175s are highly unlikely to be cleared for the Cumbrian Coast, and adding crew training in Yorkshire would be prohibitive.

The core North East service is made up of 23 diagrams, add in the use of 3 car sets where currently the only option is 2x 2 car and you can surely gain one set, 22 +2 for the Northumbria Line, makes 24, which is 89% utilisation.

And thats before considering the possible deployment of Hydrogen trains on the Tees Valley.

 

[Neptune]

That’s fine. Where are you going to maintain the ‘released’ units? They would need to return to Heaton on either service trains via Carlisle or on the ECS via York.

Or are you advocating redundancies due to reduced workload at Heaton and then struggling with the additional unit maintenance having to be squeezed in at other depots.

 

[Philip]

175s are highly unlikely to be cleared for the Cumbrian Coast, and adding crew training in Yorkshire would be prohibitive.

The core North East service is made up of 23 diagrams, add in the use of 3 car sets where currently the only option is 2x 2 car and you can surely gain one set, 22 +2 for the Northumbria Line, makes 24, which is 89% utilisation.

And thats before considering the possible deployment of Hydrogen trains on the Tees Valley.

Class 175s are cleared for the Cumbrian Coast, at least as far as Millom. I think 175s running in 5 or 6 car formation and working Manchester-Barrow/Windermere would be a good option as the 195s could then be released to strengthen elsewhere or replace some Sprinters in the North East. You could have a small fleet of about 15 x 175s based at Longsight to work the Cumbria services and then the remaining 12 could go elsewhere, possibly to replace the LHCS at Chiltern or the GWR HSTs.

 

[The Planner]

Replace the mk3 sets: 4x2+3 cars
Replace the 172s lost: 4x2 cars
That leaves 3 2 car and 12 3 car units for growth and to deal with Chiltern's pre covid overcrowding. Also they had 8 68s to allow for maintenance, this would need to be the same for DMUs.

While the remaining units for growth is generous they would likely be off lease if Chiltern didn't take all of them.

Where are they going to maintain and stable all of those? Suspect you arent going to fit them at Wembley, Aylesbury, Banbury and Stourbridge.

If Chiltern are having some of them, in order to keep them all in the same area, why not use the remainder on EWR? The 196s can all go to the Midlands as originally intended. As it'll almost be GBR time by the time EWR opens, Chiltern and EWR could be merged into one unit. 175s would surely be well suited to the EWR route.

E-W will expect some brand new units as politically its not going to look very good unless anything else is gutted and refurbed top to bottom. They will only need a handful of two car units.

 

[Energy]

Where are they going to maintain and stable all of those? Suspect you arent going to fit them at Wembley, Aylesbury, Banbury and Stourbridge.

Not sure, I'm aware that the Wembley depot is pretty full.

E-W will expect some brand new units as politically its not going to look very good unless anything else is gutted and refurbed top to bottom. They will only need a handful of two car units.

Only 6 2 car units...

 

[tomuk]

E-W will expect some brand new units as politically its not going to look very good unless anything else is gutted and refurbed top to bottom. They will only need a handful of two car units.

The 175s have just had such a refit plus EW Rail isn't very high on anybody's agenda Shapps was suggesting the Bedford to Cambridge bit can be scrapped in the Tory leadership race.

 

[The Planner]

The 175s have just had such a refit plus EW Rail isn't very high on anybody's agenda Shapps was suggesting the Bedford to Cambridge bit can be scrapped in the Tory leadership race.

E-W as a seperate company will and Bedford Cambridge is a good decade away and is irrelevant at this point.

 

[anamyd]

The 175s have just had such a refit plus EW Rail isn't very high on anybody's agenda Shapps was suggesting the Bedford to Cambridge bit can be scrapped in the Tory leadership race.

The 175s haven't had a full refurbishment, just TfW's "re-trimming of whatever seats were fitted, wood-effect veneering of whatever tables were fitted, and re-painting of whatever other fittings were present" - in the 175s' case they were all original (I saw a remaining trace of FNW purple around the edge of a small toilet mirror) - and re-carpeting of the floors and power socket upgrades. They had not had the seats, tables, luggage racks, toilet fittings etc, completely replaced like on the then-ATW 158s in the early 2010s, which meant a much better result after TfW's "refurbishment" on those units.

 

[IanXC]

That’s fine. Where are you going to maintain the ‘released’ units? They would need to return to Heaton on either service trains via Carlisle or on the ECS via York.

Or are you advocating redundancies due to reduced workload at Heaton and then struggling with the additional unit maintenance having to be squeezed in at other depots.

I'd expect 175s moving to Northern to be part of the plan to withdraw the oldest Sprinters. So either 150s or 156s would leave the operation altogether.

Remember that the amount of work would increase because 16 of the 175 sets are 3 car rather than 2 car, so thats an increase equivalent to 8 more 2 car sets. After that it would be a case of either carrying on supplying 156s to the Cumbrian Coast, or that being done by Newton Heath, and Heaton suppling 158s either for the S&C or on the ECS via York.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I'd expect 175s moving to Northern to be part of the plan to withdraw the oldest Sprinters. So either 150s or 156s would leave the operation altogether.

Remember that the amount of work would increase because 16 of the 175 sets are 3 car rather than 2 car, so thats an increase equivalent to 8 more 2 car sets. After that it would be a case of either carrying on supplying 156s to the Cumbrian Coast, or that being done by Newton Heath, and Heaton suppling 158s either for the S&C or on the ECS via York.

That would require all units moving to Northern, which isn't the current plan. Also, in no way will a fleet of 27 trains replace a fleet of 78 and 51 trains respectively. They could however, replace both the 155s and 170s via cascades of 195s, with room to spare.

 

[IanXC]

That would require all units moving to Northern, which isn't the current plan. Also, in no way will a fleet of 27 trains replace a fleet of 78 and 51 trains respectively. They could however, replace both the 155s and 170s via cascades of 195s, with room to spare.

You're privy to some knowledge of what the 'current plan' is then?

I didn't suggest that they would replace them, simply that they would be the start of getting rid of the oldest Sprinters.

 

[LOL The Irony]

You're privy to some knowledge of what the 'current plan' is then?

Chiltern, to replace the loco-hauled sets, as per:

DfT documentation seems to suggest some will end up with Chiltern.

 

[IanXC]

Chiltern, to replace the loco-hauled sets, as per:

Nope.

What the source for that actually says is:

39.4 Subject to the Secretary of State providing his approval and funding being made available, commencing from [REDACT , the Operator shall introduce a HyDrive fleet fitment programme in respect of all the Class 165 units comprised in the Train Fleet and, any Class 175 units which are part of the Train Fleet as at that date.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1081083/chiltern-railway-company-ltd-business-plan-commitments.pdf

All that says is that *if* Chiltern have any Class 175 units, then they shall fit them with HyDrive. It suggests that 175s are an option, but nothing more.

 

[LOL The Irony]

All that says is that *if* Chiltern have any Class 175 units, then they shall fit them with HyDrive. It suggests that 175s are an option, but nothing more.

Then why mention them in the first place, if there are no plans for them to move there? It's more concrete than Northern or GWR.

 

[IanXC]

Then why mention them in the first place, if there are no plans for them to move there? It's more concrete than Northern or GWR.

If it was confirmed that that was where they were going, there would be no need for the word "any".

 

[LOL The Irony]

If it was confirmed that that was where they were going, there would be no need for the word "any".

You can plan something without actually doing it. The Grand Central Blackpool service springs to mind.

 

[Neptune]

That would require all units moving to Northern, which isn't the current plan. Also, in no way will a fleet of 27 trains replace a fleet of 78 and 51 trains respectively. They could however, replace both the 155s and 170s via cascades of 195s, with room to spare.

The monthly ‘let’s ignore all the expense of converting Botanic Gardens into a maintenance depot for said 155’s and 170’s’.

 

[MattRat]

The monthly ‘let’s ignore all the expense of converting Botanic Gardens into a maintenance depot for said 155’s and 170’s’.

Well I presume something will have to be done eventually. Or do plan on running 150s forever?

 

[Neptune]

Well I presume something will have to be done eventually. Or do plan on running 150s forever?

Not sure what that’s got to do with 155’s and 170’s at BG.

 

[Philip]

The monthly ‘let’s ignore all the expense of converting Botanic Gardens into a maintenance depot for said 155’s and 170’s’.

Northern 170s could move to EMR and still be maintained at Hull; if they stuck to the Liverpool to Nottingham route then it wouldn't be too far out of the way having the maintenance base at Hull. Potentially an early morning Hull to Sheffield (vice versa late evening) Northern service could utilise one or two of these 170s before they go onto EMR Hope Valley diagrams. A similar arrangement happened for a Northern Cleethorpes service with a 185 a few years ago. Class 155s will probably be scrapped within the next 5 years or so.

Only probably 7 or 8 3-coach 175s (or 5 each of 2 and 3-coach) would be needed for Chiltern use as things stand, that's if they decide to take them at all to replace the LHCS services. The rest would have to go elsewhere and Northern seems a pretty logical shout considering they've pledged to replace all of their Sprinters by the end of the decade.

 

[JonathanH]

Northern 170s could move to EMR and still be maintained at Hull; if they stuck to the Liverpool to Nottingham route then it wouldn't be too far out of the way having the maintenance base at Hull.

That really is stretching credibility. Sheffield and Hull are nearly 70 miles away from each other.

 

[43096]

Northern 170s could move to EMR and still be maintained at Hull; if they stuck to the Liverpool to Nottingham route then it wouldn't be too far out of the way having the maintenance base at Hull. Potentially an early morning Hull to Sheffield (vice versa late evening) Northern service could utilise one or two of these 170s before they go onto EMR Hope Valley diagrams.

That's just pure crayonista.

Only probably 7 or 8 3-coach 175s (or 5 each of 2 and 3-coach) would be needed for Chiltern use as things stand, that's if they decide to take them at all to replace the LHCS services. The rest would have to go elsewhere and Northern seems a pretty logical shout considering they've pledged to replace all of their Sprinters by the end of the decade.

Or, as I keep saying, send all the 175s to Chiltern and either displace 165s (to GWR vice 769s?) or 168s. Turbostars are far more useful across multiple operators - you could even send the 168s to Northern (and re-wire the couplers to make then 170s) and maintain them at Botanic Gardens.

 

[Neptune]

Northern 170s could move to EMR and still be maintained at Hull; if they stuck to the Liverpool to Nottingham route then it wouldn't be too far out of the way having the maintenance base at Hull. Potentially an early morning Hull to Sheffield (vice versa late evening) Northern service could utilise one or two of these 170s before they go onto EMR Hope Valley diagrams. A similar arrangement happened for a Northern Cleethorpes service with a 185 a few years ago. Class 155s will probably be scrapped within the next 5 years or so.

Only probably 7 or 8 3-coach 175s (or 5 each of 2 and 3-coach) would be needed for Chiltern use as things stand, that's if they decide to take them at all to replace the LHCS services. The rest would have to go elsewhere and Northern seems a pretty logical shout considering they've pledged to replace all of their Sprinters by the end of the decade.

Hull is being re-established to maintain Northern units due to lack of space at other depots. Why are people allergic to Northern having 170’s?

 

[Starmill]

It's worth being aware that Transport Scotland are trying to plan based on the withdrawal of class 156 and 153 sets by 2025-26 and 158s by 2030-31. Obviously they don't actually have any 150s to deal with but these timescales are realistic for those also. Beyond these timescales some very expensive life extension work is likely to become necessary. Class 170s, 175s, and so on should be well equipped to last a further five years at minimum.