Class 175 future speculation

[Kite159]

175s to Chiltern isn't such a bad idea in my mind, as long as they try to keep them to the Birmingham limited stop services.

More intercity like with the end doors than the suburban door layout of the 168s.

Especially as Chiltern has lost the 4x 172s & potentially the loco hauled sets, when getting extra passengers from Avanti pricing

 

[craigybagel]

How is buying a train that can't go where it needs to, and needs changes to either it or infrastructure not a teething issue?

"Hi, I want some some new trains. Here is the collosal list of every other one that's been down the lines we need it to work on. Here are their dimensions. Can you please build us one that fits?"

Bearing in mind the 30 year old MKIVs didn't fit on the Cardiff - Holyhead route when they first arrived, and still don't fit on the Crewe - Shrewsbury section, it's hardly an issue just affecting new trains. I also don't believe it's something that comes as a surprise - different trains come in different shapes and sizes and sometimes that has effects on the infrastructure.

Is there anywhere else in the world that does this nonsense we do?

France? I'm sure plenty of other places too.

 

[Wolfie]

How is buying a train that can't go where it needs to, and needs changes to either it or infrastructure not a teething issue?

"Hi, I want some some new trains. Here is the collosal list of every other one that's been down the lines we need it to work on. Here are their dimensions. Can you please build us one that fits?"

Is there anywhere else in the world that does this nonsense we do?

Ahem... France 2014...

"Trains are big in France. They're often very fast, often French-made, and they are widely used. At the moment, they are scandalously wide and big.

Nearly 2,000 new trains ordered by the national railroad, SNCF, are too wide for many French railroad stations. So to accommodate the new trains, hundreds of platforms at railroad stations will have to reconfigured."

French Trains Are Too Wide For Stations

Robert Siegel talks to columnist Hervé Martin of the French newspaper Le Canard Enchaine about the story it broke about new French trains that are too wide for many French train stations.

www.npr.org

 

[Philip]

Page 9 of the report seems to indicate that the plan or hope is for the class 165s and remaining class 168s to be converted to hybrid working, but no mention of 175s. I think the reference to 175s may have been a typing error, but even if not I think this confirms that there are no plans for 168s to leave the route and that any 175s arriving will be as a micro fleet to replace the loco-coaching stock and not to replace the Turbostars.

 

[CR165022]

the 175s were mentioned at the very end, although it doesnt mention getting all of them

 

[QSK19]

Could (some of) the 175s be used to run EWR services if it looks like there is no home for them?

The Class 196 introduction thread contains posts suggesting that all the 196s are to be kept by WMR - an order for more 196s would be placed. This seems at odds with the ill-feeling towards ordering more DMUs; so if the 175s are going to be available and there are no takers for them, that at least offers a DMU solution without ordering more of them. Not sure if the 175s are the right fit for EWR, but if push comes to shove and a quick solution is needed…

 

[craigybagel]

Could (some of) the 175s be used to run EWR services if it looks like there is no home for them?

The Class 196 introduction thread contains posts suggesting that all the 196s are to be kept by WMR - an order for more 196s would be placed. This seems at odds with the ill-feeling towards ordering more DMUs; so if the 175s are going to be available and there are no takers for them, that at least offers a DMU solution without ordering more of them. Not sure if the 175s are the right fit for EWR, but if push comes to shove and a quick solution is needed…

I would assume the plan for EWR is DOO from day one? if so that would be a lot easier with 196s than 175s.

 

[QSK19]

I would assume the plan for EWR is DOO from day one? if so that would be a lot easier with 196s than 175s.

Guessing, though, that the 175s could be adapted to DOO unless it’d be considered economically unviable? Or is it technically not possible?

 

[craigybagel]

Guessing, though, that the 175s could be adapted to DOO unless it’d be considered economically unviable? Or is it technically not possible?

They've already got the buttons fitted, it's just a case of adding monitors and cameras. I've no idea how feasible that would be but it's a complication over 196s.

 

[43096]

How about 175s to Chiltern to replace the LHCS and some 165s. 165s to GWR for Devon Metro work.

 

[Philip]

How about 175s to Chiltern to replace the LHCS and some 165s. 165s to GWR for Devon Metro work.

The report states 165s are planned for conversion to battery hybrid, so it's unlikely they'll be going elsewhere.

Perhaps if all 2-car 175s transferred to Chiltern for replacing the LHCS and all 3-car units to Northern for the NE and Cumbria then it would look a bit more uniform.

 

[craigybagel]

The report states 165s are planned for conversion to battery hybrid, so it's unlikely they'll be going elsewhere.

Perhaps if all 2-car 175s transferred to Chiltern for replacing the LHCS and all 3-car units to Northern for the NE and Cumbria then it would look a bit more uniform.

More likely the other way around surely? There are only 11 2 car sets, that wouldn't be enough to replace the LHCS at Chiltern.

 

[Philip]

More likely the other way around surely? There are only 11 2 car sets, that wouldn't be enough to replace the LHCS at Chiltern.

Some people on this forum within the last few months have suggested that Chiltern may not replace the LHCS at all and just stretch out the 168s to cover for them. Not sure if it will go this far, but it seems likely that they could get away with a reduction in the number of overall coaches on the route without causing overcrowding.

 

[GWVillager]

How about 175s to Chiltern to replace the LHCS and some 165s. 165s to GWR for Devon Metro work.

I’m not sure if the 175s would be able to maintain anywhere near the standard of comfort the LCHS provides. In a pinch they could do but there’s no urgent need to replace them as far as I’m aware.

 

[CBlue]

I’m not sure if the 175s would be able to maintain anywhere near the standard of comfort the LCHS provides. In a pinch they could do but there’s no urgent need to replace them as far as I’m aware.

Can't say I've been on a 175 but I'd sorely hope they don't sway around and have gangway squeaks worse than a MK3. As for replacement the coaching stock certainly isn't getting any younger....

 

[GWVillager]

Can't say I've been on a 175 but I'd sorely hope they don't sway around and have gangway squeaks worse than a MK3. As for replacement the coaching stock certainly isn't getting any younger....

That is true. The 175s are surprisingly niche though, there’s no First Class, mediocre top speed, atypical gearing and all the while with Intercity end vestibules. I do quite like them, but struggle to think of a route that would really suit them well, and the Chiltern Mainline isn’t one of them. GWR Portsmouth to Cardiff/Great Malvern to Brighton perhaps? They’d be much better than 165s and the depots will know how to deal with them considering they were operating 180s until just a few years ago.

 

[The Planner]

That is true. The 175s are surprisingly niche though, there’s no First Class, mediocre top speed, atypical gearing and all the while with Intercity end vestibules. I do quite like them, but struggle to think of a route that would really suit them well, and the Chiltern Mainline isn’t one of them. GWR Portsmouth to Cardiff/Great Malvern to Brighton perhaps? They’d be much better than 165s and the depots will know how to deal with them considering they were operating 180s until just a few years ago.

Why not? Chiltern is 100mph as per a 175 and they don't have first class either. As long as they can match a 168 then they just slot in the paths.

 

[warwickshire]

I’m not sure if the 175s would be able to maintain anywhere near the standard of comfort the LCHS provides. In a pinch they could do but there’s no urgent need to replace them as far as I’m aware.

After this mornings failure at Old Hill.
Chiltern mk3s are going back to old habits like before lockdown always failing. 68011 always did always will.
However 175 replacement 3 cars would be ideal especially with a 6 car for this purpose. Especially if failures continue DFT will probably end sooner than later. Most likely and will try and get 175 sooner than later if possible.
But makes sense 3 Car to Chiltern.
2 car to Northern north east area maybe. But possible to North West send 156 to North East. Send 158 either Way to Gwr to replace castle Hsts.
However both Chiltern and Northern seems very ideal indeed.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Perhaps if all 2-car 175s transferred to Chiltern for replacing the LHCS and all 3-car units to Northern for the NE and Cumbria then it would look a bit more uniform.

I have a better idea. Keep the 175s west, so east side can keep their 158s they nicked from us in 2005. They're already route cleared for Chester - Manchester via both routes.

 

[Philip]

After this mornings failure at Old Hill.
Chiltern mk3s are going back to old habits like before lockdown always failing. 68011 always did always will.
However 175 replacement 3 cars would be ideal especially with a 6 car for this purpose. Especially if failures continue DFT will probably end sooner than later. Most likely and will try and get 175 sooner than later if possible.
But makes sense 3 Car to Chiltern.
2 car to Northern north east area maybe. But possible to North West send 156 to North East. Send 158 either Way to Gwr to replace castle Hsts.
However both Chiltern and Northern seems very ideal indeed.

I suggested the 2-car units to Chiltern as these could run in double formation; 4 coaches would probably be about right, running 6 coach formations would probably be overkill on a lot of the services.

Northern on the other hand could replace 2-car 156s and 158s with 3-car 175s which seems a good balance.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The 175s are surprisingly niche though, there’s no First Class, mediocre top speed, atypical gearing and all the while with Intercity end vestibules. I do quite like them, but struggle to think of a route that would really suit them well

End vestibules is NOT an Intercity-only feature, it is also the appropriate configuration for Regional Express services (such as most of the 175's current work) and Regional/Rural services (such as the Heart Of Wales Line). Why else did BR build the 155s and 156s with end doors and only a 75mph top speed? If anything, if there is a problem with the 175's top speed it is that they are too fast/high-powered. Routes that have been considered important enough to justify an upgrade to 90/100mph are typically too busy for 2/3-car units running alone all day (it's a similar story with Voyagers, Meridians, 800s/802s etc. - the 125mph routes are busy enough to need more than five coaches). That isn't a problem with 158s as they have unit end gangways so you can just couple them together, but the 175's lack of gangways makes them less user-friendly as 4/5-car trains.

GWR Portsmouth to Cardiff/Great Malvern to Brighton perhaps?

Didn't I read the other day that GWR have now scrapped the Brighton services? Cardiff-Portsmouth though seems the ideal place to send them if they can't be kept with TfW or if TfW can find a suitable replacement for them. Cardiff-Portsmouth already suffers from non-gangwayed units being run in multiple so in that respect the 175s wouldn't be a step backwards and in terms of suitability for long-distance passengers the 175s would be a massive improvement over the 166s/165s. Similarly, EMR's plan to use 170s on Liverpool-Norwich would have the gangway issue so 175s would be no worse in that respect so would also be a good alternative for EMR.

 

[JonathanH]

I’m not sure if the 175s would be able to maintain anywhere near the standard of comfort the LCHS provides. In a pinch they could do but there’s no urgent need to replace them as far as I’m aware.

They don't need to maintain the standard of comfort the LHCS provides. It isn't a relevant factor in consideration of stock replacement. That said, 175s aren't that bad in the respect.

 

[GWVillager]

End vestibules is NOT an Intercity-only feature, it is also the appropriate configuration for Regional Express services (such as most of the 175's current work) and Regional/Rural services (such as the Heart Of Wales Line). Why else did BR build the 155s and 156s with end doors and only a 75mph top speed? If anything, if there is a problem with the 175's top speed it is that they are too fast/high-powered. Routes that have been considered important enough to justify an upgrade to 90/100mph are typically too busy for 2/3-car units running alone all day (it's a similar story with Voyagers, Meridians, 800s/802s etc. - the 125mph routes are busy enough to need more than five coaches). That isn't a problem with 158s as they have unit end gangways so you can just couple them together, but the 175's lack of gangways makes them less user-friendly as 4/5-car trains.


Didn't I read the other day that GWR have now scrapped the Brighton services? Cardiff-Portsmouth though seems the ideal place to send them if they can't be kept with TfW or if TfW can find a suitable replacement for them. Cardiff-Portsmouth already suffers from non-gangwayed units being run in multiple so in that respect the 175s wouldn't be a step backwards and in terms of suitability for long-distance passengers the 175s would be a massive improvement over the 166s/165s. Similarly, EMR's plan to use 170s on Liverpool-Norwich would have the gangway issue so 175s would be no worse in that respect so would also be a good alternative for EMR.

Ah yes sorry, it’s now Great Malvern to Southampton I believe. I also remember hearing somewhere that Liverpool-Norwich will remain 158 operated due to Southern retaining the 171s.

As for your first point, I completely agree, but 1/3 2/3 is always going to win out if you’re talking about more urban stuff, which the 175s might have found work doing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2022 ==

They don't need to maintain the standard of comfort the LHCS provides. It isn't a relevant factor in consideration of stock replacement. That said, 175s aren't that bad in the respect.

Why isn’t it relevant? For the passenger, it’s one of the main priorities, and shouldn’t we be more passenger focused in the age of GBR? I suppose they are a good bit better than some other stock around, but the 175s are certainly looking quite dated internally, despite the TfW refurbishment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2022 ==

Why not? Chiltern is 100mph as per a 175 and they don't have first class either. As long as they can match a 168 then they just slot in the paths.

The LHCS has first doesn’t it?

 

[tomuk]

I suppose they are a good bit better than some other stock around, but the 175s are certainly looking quite dated internally, despite the TfW refurbishment.

Any examples of stock that isn't dated? The 175s give as good an ambience as the 168s if not better. If kept to long distance runs ie Birmingham/Oxford to Marylebone they'll be fine. Some of the two cars would also be fine for EWR.

 

[GWVillager]

I

Any examples of stock that isn't dated? The 175s give as good an ambience as the 168s if not better. If kept to long distance runs ie Birmingham/Oxford to Marylebone they'll be fine. Some of the two cars would also be fine for EWR.

On consideration that comment was a bit nit picky of me! The main issues I have are really to do with the vestibules and roof panelling, it all feels quite old and tired and it has a really significant impact on passenger perception of the railways (a non enthusiast friend thought the 175s were trams until I told him otherwise!). The 168s do much better in those regards I find. The idea was to replace the LHCS and not the 168s with 175s though wasn’t it?

 

[The Planner]

I suggested the 2-car units to Chiltern as these could run in double formation; 4 coaches would probably be about right, running 6 coach formations would probably be overkill on a lot of the services.

Northern on the other hand could replace 2-car 156s and 158s with 3-car 175s which seems a good balance.

Multiples of 2 isnt what Chiltern want to do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2022 ==

The LHCS has first doesn’t it?

They had a "business zone" but they have got rid.

 

[43096]

Perhaps if all 2-car 175s transferred to Chiltern for replacing the LHCS and all 3-car units to Northern for the NE and Cumbria then it would look a bit more uniform.

For a fleet of 70 vehicles you really don't want to be splitting the fleet into two micro-fleets with different operators.

That is true. The 175s are surprisingly niche though, there’s no First Class, mediocre top speed, atypical gearing and all the while with Intercity end vestibules. I do quite like them, but struggle to think of a route that would really suit them well, and the Chiltern Mainline isn’t one of them. GWR Portsmouth to Cardiff/Great Malvern to Brighton perhaps? They’d be much better than 165s and the depots will know how to deal with them considering they were operating 180s until just a few years ago.

Mediocre top speed? Same as a 168.
Atypical gearing? From my experience they're rather more sprightly than the asthmatic 168s and 170.
Chiltern main line absolutely suits them.

 

[Mikey C]

How about 175s to Chiltern to replace the LHCS and some 165s. 165s to GWR for Devon Metro work.

I'd agree with that

To me they have too many 165s and not enough 100mph mainline stock, hence having 75mph 165s clogging up the 2 track mainline.

Keep enough 165s for the Aylesbury vs Amersham services, and move the rest to more rural routes. They'd be an upgrade on 150s.

 

[GWVillager]

I'd agree with that

To me they have too many 165s and not enough 100mph mainline stock, hence having 75mph 165s clogging up the 2 track mainline.

Keep enough 165s for the Aylesbury vs Amersham services, and move the rest to more rural routes. They'd be an upgrade on 150s.

Yes, 150s are just about the only thing they’re an upgrade for!

Multiples of 2 isnt what Chiltern want to do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2022 ==


They had a "business zone" but they have got rid.

Oh no, from what I could tell that was quite a high quality offering, I presume it’s still there just declassified now?

 

[irish_rail]

Refurbished 175s id go as far as saying are the best on board ambience of any train currently running in the UK. Id have them all day long on the Cardiff to Penzance if HSTs must be replaced but I expect they are considered too good to be wasted on the south west and will stay up North no doubt....