Class 175 future speculation

[Neptune]

send them some of Northern's 170s in return, they are being used on unsuitable services anyway.

This has been answered so many times before and has been ignored on each occasion evidently. Northern’s 170’s mainly work Sheffield - Scarborough services which are the exact kind of service they were designed for.

Just 6 of the 16 are used on the Harrogate line daily which allows them to be rotated through Neville Hill for maintenance. Once they are transferred to Botanic Gardens, NL will still be able to carry out minor maintenance on them where required.

The balance of services they currently operate isn’t having any sort of adverse affect on them these days.

 

[Geeves]

170s work quite happily on stop start work everywhere else they are (and were) deployed, it only seems to be an issue for certain posters on here rather than the TOCs themselves.

As for 175s to Northern, although the director does not have the overall final say he is still in charge of the ships direction and that direction for DMUs is one single fleet of 195s, hence the order of hybrid drive 195s, more will be on the horizon as time goes by.

 

[Philip]

I doubt Chiltern will be looking to cascade 168s, with the first unit recently undergoing conversion to a hybrid train it seems this is the direction they're going in for all of them.

Perhaps 175s could replace/cascade 165s?

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps 175s could replace/cascade 165s?

That would be totally inappropriate because there is a distinct benefit to having the wide doored 165s on the Chiltern services they operate.

 

[craigybagel]

Which neglects the fact that Botanic Gardens is currently being upgraded at considerable cost to a full depot specifically to care for the 170s, and that there's already a plan to reshuffle them onto more suitable routes with 195s backfilling (with the only traction training required being at a single small depot).

Harrogate presumably?

That would be totally inappropriate because there is a distinct benefit to having the wide doored 165s on the Chiltern services they operate.

But you could use 175s on limited stop Birmingham and Oxford services to cascade 168s to displace the 165s?

I'm not saying you should or that they will, just that it will be an option.

As I said above, if it was me I'd use them to cascade 168s to EMR (converted back into 170s) - thus the only additional training required would be 175 training for Chiltern. But who knows?

 

[Mikey C]

But you could use 175s on limited stop Birmingham and Oxford services to cascade 168s to displace the 165s?

I'm not saying you should or that they will, just that it will be an option.

As I said above, if it was me I'd use them to cascade 168s to EMR (converted back into 170s) - thus the only additional training required would be 175 training for Chiltern. But who knows?

Using 175s to displace some 168s to cover some services currently operated by 165s could be quite useful.

For example the 165s currently operate some of the stopping services on the Mainline, where their 75mph top speed isn't helpful. Having just 175s and 168s on the Mainline would give a consistent 100mph fleet there.

 

[skyhigh]

Harrogate presumably?

Indeed.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Very good thread this - 175's can quite happily operate even Oxford to London Marylebone services - don't forget at least pre-covid there were I believe 2 Class 68-hauled Mark 3 diagrams (07:20 'Oxford Flyer' and the departure of around 8pm too).

 

[warwickshire]

175 are most certainly suitable to the chiltern mainline. Already cleared on the line. And can do door de select as well so very ideal for Birmingham moor Street to kidderminster and stations such as Hatton. Also for the route and will be ideal for Stratford upon avon. For example much better than a 165.
Plus is far more superior for those with disabilities than a 165 and far more suitable in the bays without seats obsecuing the toilet like a 165 does.
Also far superior wifi and also for journeys to oxford or north off banbury ideal for charging up mobile phones ie 165 don't have that facility.

 

[CyrusWuff]

One issue with 175s is the same as on the Mark 3s, namely having doors at the vehicle ends rather than at thirds like the 165s and 168s.

Another is that they're fitted with Dellner couplers, where the 165s and 168s have BSI couplers, which causes diagramming issues and problems in the event of failure. (Though that's the same for the Mk 3s, given they can only realistically be rescued by a 59, 66, 67 or 68.)

 

[Philip]

175 are most certainly suitable to the chiltern mainline. Already cleared on the line. And can do door de select as well so very ideal for Birmingham moor Street to kidderminster and stations such as Hatton. Also for the route and will be ideal for Stratford upon avon. For example much better than a 165.
Plus is far more superior for those with disabilities than a 165 and far more suitable in the bays without seats obsecuing the toilet like a 165 does.
Also far superior wifi and also for journeys to oxford or north off banbury ideal for charging up mobile phones ie 165 don't have that facility.

Are 175s cleared all the way to Marylebone?

 

[Nym]

One issue with 175s is the same as on the Mark 3s, namely having doors at the vehicle ends rather than at thirds like the 165s and 168s.

Another is that they're fitted with Dellner couplers, where the 165s and 168s have BSI couplers, which causes diagramming issues and problems in the event of failure. (Though that's the same for the Mk 3s, given they can only realistically be rescued by a 59, 66, 67 or 68.)

Mk.3s can be rescued by anything that's a locomotive, unless you mean anything with AAR, in which case it's a limited pool of 68s.

 

[JonathanH]

Are 175s cleared all the way to Marylebone?

It doesn't matter. If someone wanted to operate them there, there would be a programme to clear them.

 

[Philip]

It doesn't matter. If someone wanted to operate them there, there would be a programme to clear them.

Not necessarily that straightforward; when the trains were new some platforms had to be shaved before they could clear them. Also there is the issue of more diesel trains into a London terminal; one of the reasons for Class 68/mk3 removal from this route is because of TfL wanting to reduce the number of diesel trains in London stations; and 175s are more polluting than 68s.

 

[warwickshire]

Are 175s cleared all the way to Marylebone?

Yes.

 

[JonathanH]

Not necessarily that straightforward; when the trains were new some platforms had to be shaved before they could clear them.

Yes, that is what I was implying by saying there could be a programme of clearance.

Also there is the issue of more diesel trains into a London terminal; one of the reasons for Class 68/mk3 removal from this route is because of TfL wanting to reduce the number of diesel trains in London stations; and 175s are more polluting than 68s.

Yes, a very good reason why trains on the Chiltern line should be as closely matched to demand (with an acceptable level of overcrowding) as possible with the fleet size set accordingly.

 

[Anonymous10]

That would be totally inappropriate because there is a distinct benefit to having the wide doored 165s on the Chiltern services they operate.

ive said many a time but gwr to replace castle sets and for use on weymouth service's?

 

[The Planner]

Yes.

No. Check again. They are only clear to Northolt Jn. They aren't cleared to Oxford either.

 

[mmh]

No. Check again. They are only clear to Northolt Jn. They aren't cleared to Oxford either.

But could be. In another thread we have people claiming their replacements aren't cleared.

Why do people look for problems rather than answers?

 

[The Planner]

But could be. In another thread we have people claiming their replacements aren't cleared.

Why do people look for problems rather than answers?

Where have I said its a problem? It was said they were cleared to Marylebone, they aren't. If someone decides they need clearing then the work would get done.

 

[Parallel]

ive said many a time but gwr to replace castle sets and for use on weymouth service's?

I’d love if they became the regional stock of GWR west services. They’d be ideal running in 4 or 5 car formations for Cardiff - Portsmouth services, and services up to Great Malvern via Gloucester, and the shorter workings between Cheltenham and Swindon. This would allow more Turbos to take over some Class 150 duties in Devon and Cornwall, plus retained on local services around Bristol - With 158s retained to supplement regional services.

Realistically, I don’t think it’ll happen, though GWR would do well to expand their 158 fleet when those become available from TfW.

 

[Anonymous10]

I’d love if they became the regional stock of GWR west services. They’d be ideal running in 4 or 5 car formations for Cardiff - Portsmouth services, and services up to Great Malvern via Gloucester, and the shorter workings between Cheltenham and Swindon. This would allow more Turbos to take over some Class 150 duties in Devon and Cornwall, plus retained on local services around Bristol - With 158s retained to supplement regional services.

Realistically, I don’t think it’ll happen, though GWR would do well to expand their 158 fleet when those become available from TfW.

why not take the 158s and 175s it would allow 175s to work in multiple on whichever route they choose and the 158s to do the others ie taking 16x off cardiff- partsmouth/ Southampton. would also alow the 16x fleet to be focused in devon and bristol this would then help to replace the 150s or is there clearance issues

 

[craigybagel]

As for DOO, Chiltern is mirrors and platform cameras anyway, so provided there isn't a visibility issue they should work.

Thinking back on this, I suspect there would be a visibility issue. The side window in the drivers cab is quite far back - it's impossible for a driver to be in the seat and have their head out of the window at the same time. I'm (thankfully) no expert on DOO having never worked it but I suspect cameras and internal monitors like on the 334s would be required

Indeed.

Thanks

Another is that they're fitted with Dellner couplers, where the 165s and 168s have BSI couplers, which causes diagramming issues and problems in the event of failure. (Though that's the same for the Mk 3s, given they can only realistically be rescued by a 59, 66, 67 or 68.)

Wherever the 175s go that's going to be an issue though - it's a side effect of being a small fleet. They've spent their whole career surrounded by BSI fitted units, with no major issues so far .

 

[warwickshire]

Thinking back on this, I suspect there would be a visibility issue. The side window in the drivers cab is quite far back - it's impossible for a driver to be in the seat and have their head out of the window at the same time. I'm (thankfully) no expert on DOO having never worked it but I suspect cameras and internal monitors like on the 334s would be required


Thanks

Wherever the 175s go that's going to be an issue though - it's a side effect of being a small fleet. They've spent their whole career surrounded by BSI fitted units, with no major issues so far .

Unless iff the 175 do go to chiltern.
Operated fully by the guard open and close like the mk3s. Maybe chiltern might purchase a few purely to replace the mk3s. Again disclaimer speculative.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’d love if they became the regional stock of GWR west services. They’d be ideal running in 4 or 5 car formations for Cardiff - Portsmouth services, and services up to Great Malvern via Gloucester, and the shorter workings between Cheltenham and Swindon. This would allow more Turbos to take over some Class 150 duties in Devon and Cornwall, plus retained on local services around Bristol - With 158s retained to supplement regional services.

Realistically, I don’t think it’ll happen, though GWR would do well to expand their 158 fleet when those become available from TfW.

The Turbos specifically took over all but two diagrams on Cardiff to Portsmouth due to the lack of capacity and increased dwell time with the end doors trains particularly near Bristol and Southampton. I reckon as a 175 has a very similar layout to a 158, it’d only be feasible with 175s if most of them were six coaches. I guess you could use six pairs of /1 (with a pair on standby) for the six Turbo diagrams and two pairs of /0 for the quieter two diagrams currently ran by 158s.

 

[JonathanH]

I reckon as a 175 has a very similar layout to a 158, it’d only be feasible with 175s if most of them were six coaches.

...which comes back to one of the reasons for using Turbos, the fact that there are short platforms on the route, in particular Trowbridge, which only take five 23m coaches.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

...which comes back to one of the reasons for using Turbos, the fact that there are short platforms on the route, in particular Trowbridge, which only take five 23m coaches.

I assume 175s do not have SDO then?

 

[warwickshire]

I assume 175s do not have SDO then?

Yes facilities should still be there first north Western used it for stations ie helsby newton le willows etc.

 

[wobman]

Yes facilities should still be there first north Western used it for stations ie helsby newton le willows etc.

The tfw 175s have the capability when in multiple to lock out the doors on the rear set, they can also use local door operations on short platforms but they don't have SDO operation.
There is also door control buttons on the drivers desk but the opening button is disconnected but the door shut is enabled.

 

[Parallel]

I don’t think 6 coaches are necessary on this route in the current climate - I use the services frequently and 4/5 would be adequate most of the time. Still many Turbo services on the route are formed of three coaches, and 158s are usually 4.

There is the issue of short platforms at Warminster, Trowbridge (northbound platform), Bradford-on-Avon, Filton Abbey Wood (and possibly Romsey?). Plus Freshford and Oldfield Park for the weekend/peak morning services.

The Turbos are quite a chore to travel on for longer distance services imo and 175s provide a much better passenger experience, appreciate others may disagree. They generally cope OK when they operate as 3 carriages up/down the Marches from my experience.