Class 175 future speculation

[Bikeman78]

Because 180s are unreliable dross and need scrapped?

I've no doubt that if the class 180s were based at Chester and ran similar services to the class 175s they'd be fine. 175s have an MTIN of around 12000 which is quite respectable for DMUs.

 

[Eccles1983]

Nothing at all because all vehicles in 175/180s are powered. They are a bit like Sprinters in that regard with mostly independent vehicles. Indeed, what the 175 basically is is an upgraded 156.

I love the confidence in what you say. I mean it's completely false but still.

They are nothing alike. One massive and quite vital difference is that a 175 only has one compressor. A 156 has one on each vehicle.

Without the A car the 175 is dead in the water. Apart from running on diesel and on tracks they are nothing like a sprinter.

 

[wobman]

I've no doubt that if the class 180s were based at Chester and ran similar services to the class 175s they'd be fine. 175s have an MTIN of around 12000 which is quite respectable for DMUs.

The Alstom fitters worked hard to sort out the 175 problems, they've ended up as decent units now. I think if ATW had the 180's I don't think they would have had the issues of reliability, the Chester depot lads worked hard to resolve the 175 reliability.

 

[Sean Emmett]

So we're not much further forward understanding what will happen to the 175s, when TfW have finished with them?

I would like to see them on Cardiff - Portsmouth, but I gather that has been looked at, and rejected.

Have any options definitely been ruled out?

 

[Wolfie]

I've no doubt that if the class 180s were based at Chester and ran similar services to the class 175s they'd be fine. 175s have an MTIN of around 12000 which is quite respectable for DMUs.

Really? Based on what? You do know that they have different engines and transmission and that over the years other highly competent depots have tried and failed to improve their reliability? Maintenance can only go so far to address poor design and build.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I thought I'd make a thread to discuss/post ideas or rumours about where the 175 fleet will end up after they leave TfW.

Will the fleet be split between operators? Will it be to one or more of the rumoured suspects (EWR, Northern, GWR, ScotRail, Chiltern, Cross Country), or any other TOC you can see taking them on (including TfW keeping them), or even scrappage?

They are due to leave the Welsh franchise this time next year; from previous posts it seems 197s may start to replace them towards the end of this year, probably on North Wales services to start with (in time for the December timetable change?) and then a gradual introduction on Manchester/Holyhead to South Wales over the first few months of next year.

I think that maybe SWR may take them on to increase there DMU fleet and this would permit the line speeds on the Wessex Mainline to raised from 90m.p.h to 100m.p.h.

 

[Wolfie]

I think that maybe SWR may take them on to increase there DMU fleet and this would permit the line speeds on the Wessex Mainline to raised from 90m.p.h to 100m.p.h.

Just because the rolling stock is nominally capable of a higher speed it doesn't follow that the line speed will be raised. Why exactly would SWR want to increase their DMU fleet? In any event, if they did then surely taking more 158s would be the most sensible option for them

 

[wobman]

Just because the rolling stock is nominally capable of a higher speed it doesn't follow that the line speed will be raised. Why exactly would SWR want to increase their DMU fleet? In any event, if they did then surely taking more 158s would be the most sensible option for them

There will be the TFW 158 fleet available soon after the 175's leave

 

[Parallel]

I'd like to see Class 175s join the GWR DMU fleet and be used for regional services. The HST 2+4s are enjoyable to travel on, but are probably expensive to operate and I can't imagine they are especially environmentally friendly either. Ideally 175s and 158s would work services from Cardiff to Portsmouth, Cardiff to Taunton/Penzance, Great Malvern/Gloucester to Weymouth etc and Turbos would be retained for local services around Bristol, Exeter and hopefully they could replace some of the Class 150 operated services in Devon and Cornwall. (Yes, clearance work would be needed and you wouldn't be able to replace 150s to Looe or Gunnislake due to vehicle lengths).

Turbos are ideal for metro work due to the door layout. 175s and 158s would offer an improved customer experience for medium to longer distrance journeys due to comfortable seats, more table seats, a less cramped interior and in the Class 175s case - more leg room.

--
I wonder if they will actually end up with Northern or Scotrail to replace the Class 156s. That said, both operators have recently refurbished their fleet. Mind you, TfW are refurbishing their 175s!

 

[Clansman]

Scotrail to replace the Class 156s.

Definitely not.

ScotRail services are being cut over the next year or so if demand doesn't pick up, so there'll be a surplus of DMUs kicking about if capacity was ever needed.

And the fleet procurement strategy in relation to the Scottish Government's desire to decarbonise all ScotRail by 2035 indicates that the 156s will be replaced by new built bi-mode units by the mid 2020s as well as a new electric fleet for East Kilbride/Barrhead - which pretty much makes redundant any prediction that ScotRail will be seeking DMU cascades.

 

[Caaardiff]

I'd like to see Class 175s join the GWR DMU fleet and be used for regional services. The HST 2+4s are enjoyable to travel on, but are probably expensive to operate and I can't imagine they are especially environmentally friendly either. Ideally 175s and 158s would work services from Cardiff to Portsmouth, Cardiff to Taunton/Penzance, Great Malvern/Gloucester to Weymouth etc and Turbos would be retained for local services around Bristol, Exeter and hopefully they could replace some of the Class 150 operated services in Devon and Cornwall. (Yes, clearance work would be needed and you wouldn't be able to replace 150s to Looe or Gunnislake due to vehicle lengths).

Turbos are ideal for metro work due to the door layout. 175s and 158s would offer an improved customer experience for medium to longer distrance journeys due to comfortable seats, more table seats, a less cramped interior and in the Class 175s case - more leg room.

--
I wonder if they will actually end up with Northern or Scotrail to replace the Class 156s. That said, both operators have recently refurbished their fleet. Mind you, TfW are refurbishing their 175s!

If the timing is right and 175's do go to GWR, it would be good to see some of GWR's 150s transfer to TfW temporarily to boost Valleys capacity until the 398's and 756's arrive.

 

[Chiltern006]

it would be really nice to see them on chiltern. a good fleet to replace the LHCS when they go

 

[Wolfie]

it would be really nice to see them on chiltern. a good fleet to replace the LHCS when they go

It would make more sense for Chiltern to get more Turbostars and the 175s to backfill elsewhere for those. The 175s could go to either Northern or Crosscountry giving them a fleet boost and their 170s go to Chiltern. Perhaps more likely with GBR and more centralised planning.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2021 ==

There will be the TFW 158 fleet available soon after the 175's leave

That would be sensible if SWR need more stock and they aren't earmarked elsewhere. SWR might get the bloody aircon working too....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I see what you mean about the 175's being newer basically but with 3 Class 175's coupled together, you'd need more staff. With the older 158's and 159's you can walk through the whole train.

You don’t necessarily need staff in each portion. SWR guards have horrible habits of always locking the gangway and staying in one section anyway.

 

[Anonymous10]

It would make more sense for Chiltern to get more Turbostars and the 175s to backfill elsewhere for those. The 175s could go to either Northern or Crosscountry giving them a fleet boost and their 170s go to Chiltern. Perhaps more likely with GBR and more centralised planning.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2021 ==


That would be sensible if SWR need more stock and they aren't earmarked elsewhere. SWR might get the bloody aircon working too....

in recent experience the tfw 158s after refurb have decent aircon but off topic

 

[Wolfie]

in recent experience the tfw 158s after refurb have decent aircon but off topic

I used them quite a lot over the last few months. Every single one had duff aircon. It wasn't that people had opened the windows either - a couple of times the guard came through and unlocked then opened them.

 

[Bikeman78]

Really? Based on what? You do know that they have different engines and transmission and that over the years other highly competent depots have tried and failed to improve their reliability? Maintenance can only go so far to address poor design and build.

Fair enough. I thought they had similar engines to the 175s. In fact the engines appear to be the same as the Voyagers. So the weak link is the transmission?

 

[Wolfie]

Fair enough. I thought they had similar engines to the 175s. In fact the engines appear to be the same as the Voyagers. So the weak link is the transmission?

No worries. Truthfully l'd thought that there was more commonality than is actually the case.

 

[TXMISTA]

I'd like to see Class 175s join the GWR DMU fleet and be used for regional services. The HST 2+4s are enjoyable to travel on, but are probably expensive to operate and I can't imagine they are especially environmentally friendly either. Ideally 175s and 158s would work services from Cardiff to Portsmouth, Cardiff to Taunton/Penzance, Great Malvern/Gloucester to Weymouth etc and Turbos would be retained for local services around Bristol, Exeter and hopefully they could replace some of the Class 150 operated services in Devon and Cornwall. (Yes, clearance work would be needed and you wouldn't be able to replace 150s to Looe or Gunnislake due to vehicle lengths).

Turbos are ideal for metro work due to the door layout. 175s and 158s would offer an improved customer experience for medium to longer distrance journeys due to comfortable seats, more table seats, a less cramped interior and in the Class 175s case - more leg room.

--
I wonder if they will actually end up with Northern or Scotrail to replace the Class 156s. That said, both operators have recently refurbished their fleet. Mind you, TfW are refurbishing their 175s!

Completely agree with you but sadly I don't think we'll see the end of Turbos on Cardiff - Portsmouth for a while. 175s would be a good replacement for 2+4s though.

 

[bramling]

Completely agree with you but sadly I don't think we'll see the end of Turbos on Cardiff - Portsmouth for a while. 175s would be a good replacement for 2+4s though.

I don’t see why Turbos on Cardiff/Portsmouth should be such an issue, so long as they are suitably refurbished and maintained to a presentable condition. Thusfar this simply hasn’t happened.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair enough. I thought they had similar engines to the 175s. In fact the engines appear to be the same as the Voyagers. So the weak link is the transmission?

Overheating is I believe a big issue which will be down to how/where they are mounted. After all Transit engines are very reliable but not always when mounted under a 230.

 

[Sammyh1234]

I wonder if they will actually end up with Northern or Scotrail to replace the Class 156s. That said, both operators have recently refurbished their fleet. Mind you, TfW are refurbishing their 175s!

the next units to be replaced at northern are the 150’s and in reality an end door unit isn’t the right fit for that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the next units to be replaced at northern are the 150’s and in reality an end door unit isn’t the right fit for that.

That sort of depends where they are being used, given that Northern have had a huge new fleet of doors-at-thirds 195/331 units.

You could for instance use 175s on Barrows and Windermeres instead of 195s* which would be popular with those using those services and those who got a 195 instead of a 150, potentially on an urban stopping route where the 195's acceleration would be of huge benefit.

(I think I said above, but Northern, to allow scrapping of some 150/155/156, is to me the most sensible idea)

* In First North Western days they did, before anyone suggests they might be unsuitable.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'd like to see Class 175s join the GWR DMU fleet and be used for regional services. The HST 2+4s are enjoyable to travel on, but are probably expensive to operate and I can't imagine they are especially environmentally friendly either.

The class 175s aren't particularly fuel efficient either - compared to 158s and 195s the 175s are quite a bit heavier - but the best option environmentally is probably to leave the 175s with TfW and cut the number of 197s ordered so there are fewer diesel units overall and helping make a case to electrify sooner.

Ideally 175s and 158s would work services from Cardiff to Portsmouth, Cardiff to Taunton/Penzance, Great Malvern/Gloucester to Weymouth etc and Turbos would be retained for local services around Bristol, Exeter and hopefully they could replace some of the Class 150 operated services in Devon and Cornwall. (Yes, clearance work would be needed and you wouldn't be able to replace 150s to Looe or Gunnislake due to vehicle lengths).

I would agree that 158s and 175s would be a good option for Cardiff-Portsmouth and Bristol-Weymouth but I'd have the local stoppers from Gloucester linked up to the Taunton stopper and worked by Turbos. Unlike Cardiff-Portsmouth, the Gloucester-Taunton route has XC providing the fast service and GWR calls at the smaller stations.

 

[Wolfie]

The class 175s aren't particularly fuel efficient either - compared to 158s and 195s the 175s are quite a bit heavier - but the best option environmentally is probably to leave the 175s with TfW and cut the number of 197s ordered so there are fewer diesel units overall and helping make a case to electrify sooner.


I would agree that 158s and 175s would be a good option for Cardiff-Portsmouth and Bristol-Weymouth but I'd have the local stoppers from Gloucester linked up to the Taunton stopper and worked by Turbos. Unlike Cardiff-Portsmouth, the Gloucester-Taunton route has XC providing the fast service and GWR calls at the smaller stations.

Ye Gods, will you ever stop trying to shoehorn your 197 obsession into every thread?

 

[Neptune]

Ye Gods, will you ever stop trying to shoehorn your 197 obsession into every thread?

I know. I can’t believe it took this long.

We know, we get it, but the 197’s are happening.

 

[wobman]

Ye Gods, will you ever stop trying to shoehorn your 197 obsession into every thread?

I don't get the 197 hatred from some posters like you say The 175's are leaving TFW the 197's are the replacement and logistically keeping the 175's would be a nightmare for TFW. The retained 175's would have to go every night to longsight for maintenance, as the Chester depot will fe ran by CAF not Alstom.
I'm a fan of the 175 units but I realise they are only with TFW for 1 more year until the 197's have arrived ready to run the services.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Just because the rolling stock is nominally capable of a higher speed it doesn't follow that the line speed will be raised. Why exactly would SWR want to increase their DMU fleet? In any event, if they did then surely taking more 158s would be the most sensible option for them

My idea is that South Western Railway would introduce a half an hour service pattern in each direction on the Wessex mainline between London Waterloo and Exeter Central with one of the two trains running onto Exeter St David's.

 

[Caaardiff]

Just an out there suggestion. Buy Landore, set up a maintenance Depot for Mk4+loco and a smaller fleet of 175s, with heavy maintenance of the 175's going elsewhere. Ditch the 153's and retain all 11 2 car 175's to work Heart of Wales and West Wales services. Subject to the levels of work required for 175's to work the whole HOWL.
Why? A more reliable fleet with suitable capacity vs ageing 153s.

The intention is to increase HOWL services anyway, and Pembroke Dock services need to be improved and work to Swansea or even Cardiff.

It will then mean, which other TOC would want to take on just 16 3 car 175s? Or would they want the whole 2 and 3 car fleet.

 

[Wolfie]

Just an out there suggestion. Buy Landore, set up a maintenance Depot for Mk4+loco and a smaller fleet of 175s, with heavy maintenance of the 175's going elsewhere. Ditch the 153's and retain all 11 2 car 175's to work Heart of Wales and West Wales services. Subject to the levels of work required for 175's to work the whole HOWL.
Why? A more reliable fleet with suitable capacity vs ageing 153s.

The intention is to increase HOWL services anyway, and Pembroke Dock services need to be improved and work to Swansea or even Cardiff.

It will then mean, which other TOC would want to take on just 16 3 car 175s? Or would they want the whole 2 and 3 car fleet.

27 units is a micro fleet. Who would want just 11 or 16 units of a type? Would send the logistics bill through the roof.