Class 175 future speculation

[FlybeDash8Q400]

So does all of this signal the end of the line (puns intended) for the GWR HSTs? If so, how long will it be roughly, might try and go ride some.

A November 2022 article stated ‘within 2 years’, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re removed from the December timetable change, which I imagine could roughly be when the 175’s are able to be fully rolled out.

Said article is attached from Rail Advent.

Great Western Railway is to phase out its 2+4 HST ‘Castle Class' trains.

The full-length HSTs were replaced by Hitachi IETs, but were converted to a 2+4 (2 powercars and 4 coaches) set to run on the Cardiff to Penzance route.

Great Western Railway says that the Castles were a temporary measure for the route.

A GWR spokesperson also said that the fleet's running costs and high carbon emissions mean that the fleet needs to be replaced with more modern trains for passengers.

A spokesperson said “While our Castle Class trains have served customers well, they are by far the oldest trains in our fleet, and will have been in service on the network in various forms for some 47 years. As a result, the fleet is particularly costly to run, with a high carbon emissions footprint compared to other trains on our network.

“The Castles were always designed to be a temporary measure on the Cardiff to Penzance route. We expect to replace the Castle Class trains on a phased basis over the next couple of years, bringing customers the benefit of more modern trains that will reduce both cost and carbon emissions across the route.”

 

[Trainguy34]

A November 2022 article stated ‘within 2 years’, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re removed from the December timetable change, which I imagine could roughly be when the 175’s are able to be fully rolled out.

Said article is attached from Rail Advent.

Looks like I might have to go a bit sooner then, thanks for the update!

 

[craigybagel]

Oh well that makes sense. Not signing the route and never really having looked at it, I’m surprised so few platforms can take 6 cars on that route.

Thanks for the info

ASDO has been a godsend along there!

So does all of this signal the end of the line (puns intended) for the GWR HSTs? If so, how long will it be roughly, might try and go ride some.

Hard to see how GWR would go to the effort and expense of acquiring 175s if getting rid of the HSTs wasn't top of the list of benefits.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Not sure if you count the 444's as intercity units, however 707's and (some of the) 458's/701's are 5 coach units (there maybe others too) - granted electric so not usable for the routes in question, but there are 5 coach units.

Whilst off topic, if you are going to have non gangway units then there should be more units of 5 or 6 coaches long to limit the need to pair units up going forwards (yes they'll always be a need for short units, however less so then the was in the past).

As I understood it the post I was responding to was talking about GWR - ie. no 6-car units available in the GWR fleet and the only 5-car units in the GWR fleet are the class 800s/802s (hence the 'InterCity fleet' by which I meant GWR's InterCity fleet). My view is that every new unit should either have unit-end-gangways or be so long that running them in multiple is compeletely impractical (eg. class 700s and 9-car 80x).

My take on it is the 175s could be used in Devon and Cornwall until mid 2030s or even late 2030s

Portsmouth-Cardiff will probably be getting BEMUs in about 5 years time, so there is an element of deferring electrification alternatives with allocating them to far south west.

It is much easier (on paper financially) to order a GWR fleet for project Churchward with about 100 vehicles less as definite firm orders, but options for delivery in 2030s, than to justify replacing every DMU in one fully financed mega order. Even if did replace everything in one huge order, having 175s probably allows order to be spread over 6-9 years delivery, instead of getting all DMUs replaced in 3-4 years from about 2028 onwards

Good point; putting the 175s on branches where they can run as 2-car and 3-car units on their own for the longish term saves having to re-train staff twice if they were initally deployed on Cardiff-Portsmouth and then moved elsewhere later.

 

[Bikeman78]

Train Database 2024 shows a lot of mixed sets with different units' numbers.
175008 is listed as "At Ilford, fire damaged"
175101 is listed as "Includes 50708 (175008) and 79704 (175004)"
(50708 and 79704 are carriage numbers)

There were several hybrids before 2022 as a result of collisions and fires. Off the top of my head, 175109 had vehicles from three different units and 175004 or 175005 (I can't recall which) was in fact both the driving vehicles from 175109.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2024 ==

Under TFW/Alstom there were usually 4 planned stopped 175 on maintenance at any time.

It was 24 from 27 until the refurbishment started. This was nearly always achieved.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There were several hybrids before 2022 as a result of collisions and fires. Off the top of my head, 175109 had vehicles from three different units and 175004 or 175005 (I can't recall which) was in fact both the driving vehicles from 175109.

175109 is listed as having the driving vehicles of 004 and 005.

Includes 50704 (175004) and 79705 (175005)

With 004 having 109s'

At Ely, formed 50759, 79759 (both 175109)

 

[317 forever]

If the 175s are not taken up by anyone in the end, they could be the largest batch of post-privatisation trains to be withdrawn so far.

 

[occone]

Does anyone know if there are any plans for the 175s once they've been de-toaster-ed?

Presumably they aren't being scrapped

 

[Scotrail84]

Would the 175s not suit ScotRail at all? Assuming theres no plans for them going elsewhere?

 

[m79900]

Would the 175s not suit ScotRail at all? Assuming theres no plans for them going elsewhere?

True. 156s are getting on a bit now.

 

[43096]

True. 156s are getting on a bit now.

The 156s are on lease to ScotRail until March 2027.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Would the 175s not suit ScotRail at all? Assuming theres no plans for them going elsewhere?

Possibly but as I said above, looking very likely GWR are getting them.

 

[Dan G]

That would be the class 379; 30 sets totalling 120 vehicles compared to 27 sets totalling 68 vehicles for the 175s

(If you mean going for scrap, I don't see that happening for the 175s; they'll stay in storage)

 

[RPI]

Should see some movement on this over the next week, whole fleet looks to be going to GWR. It seems to be the worst kept secret in history at work.

 

[BillStampy]

Should see some movement on this over the next week, whole fleet looks to be going to GWR. It seems to be the worst kept secret in history at work.

Hopefully! My favourite of the fleet, 113, is on tis way to Papworth. Only a few to go then we'll see what fate they have. Hoping GWR now..

 

[D6975]

mis-forms as far as I can tell are:

175​	004	50759​		79759​
175​	005	50705​		79751​
175​	006	50706​		79765​
175​	008	50751​		79708​
175​	101	50708​	56751​	79704​
175​	109	50704​	56759​	79705​
175​	115	50765​	56765​	79706​

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

mis-forms as far as I can tell are:

175​	004	50759​		79759​
175​	005	50705​		79751​
175​	006	50706​		79765​
175​	008	50751​		79708​
175​	101	50708​	56751​	79704​
175​	109	50704​	56759​	79705​
175​	115	50765​	56765​	79706​

That’s a lot of mis-forms. It’s even worse than the 221’s!

I guess a silly question would be to ask, might it be a requirement though to actually correct these or will Angel simply just be glad to have them leased out and not care one bit how they’re formed?

 

[Energy]

That’s a lot of mis-forms. It’s even worse than the 221’s!

I guess a silly question would be to ask, might it be a requirement though to actually correct these or will Angel simply just be glad to have them leased out and not care one bit how they’re formed?

It depends. If a potential customer wants to lease the entire fleet, the formation doesn't matter. If they only wish to have some units they may take them as is or have them reformed so they lease the vehicles in the best condition.

 

[Wolfie]

That’s a lot of mis-forms. It’s even worse than the 221’s!

I guess a silly question would be to ask, might it be a requirement though to actually correct these or will Angel simply just be glad to have them leased out and not care one bit how they’re formed?

Angel will go for whatever makes Angel the most money....

 

[brad465]

Should see some movement on this over the next week, whole fleet looks to be going to GWR. It seems to be the worst kept secret in history at work.

Will it be a case of the HSTs are replaced and everything else is a net gain, with existing fleets cascaded according to need?

 

[RPI]

Will it be a case of the HSTs are replaced and everything else is a net gain, with existing fleets cascaded according to need?

I don't know intimate detail, but ultimately yes, more IET's will return to London work, 158's back to Bristol etc

 

[JonathanH]

IET's will return to London work

Does that just mean Hitachi have a better chance of getting the booked formations out or is there actually a likelihood of them being utilised for more services?

 

[43096]

That’s a lot of mis-forms. It’s even worse than the 221’s!

I guess a silly question would be to ask, might it be a requirement though to actually correct these or will Angel simply just be glad to have them leased out and not care one bit how they’re formed?

Angel did try to get TfW to re-form them correctly but was fighting a losing battle...

 

[Caaardiff]

Does that just mean Hitachi have a better chance of getting the booked formations out or is there actually a likelihood of them being utilised for more services?

Is it Hitachi's responsibility to get the booked formations out or GWR who ultimately decide what trains work what diagrams?

 

[Energy]

Is it Hitachi's responsibility to get the booked formations out or GWR who ultimately decide what trains work what diagrams?

Hitachi has a contracted number of units to get out. GWR is free to put it onto whatever they want but it has to get back to a home depot within 36hrs. Hitachi is struggling to meet the availability, however, there is a bit of leeway as the fleet availability was based on the downrated engines, when the engines were uprated the DfT/GWR accepted that it may impact maintenance. Also when a set is damaged by NR infrastructure that is 1 less unit Hitachi has to provide.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The problem is that you may end up with the wrong balance of units at a particular depot for the morning run out so you have to short or misform until you can either swap or augment.

If one gets stopped at that depot and there is no spare, then you have to do the above or CAPE a journey. There are only 13 units that are not diagrammed and most of those will be on maintenance or repairs so GW control usually has its hands full trying to rebalance the fleet and trying to ensure the right unit gets to the right depot that night.

One infrastructure fault and it can all go Pete Tong. Of course, if you deliver the units late to Hitachi, they don’t have to supply them until their maintenance window has expired. That could be up to 9 hours but is usually 3.75 hours. The clock starts when you hand the unit back on their depot and finishes when you receive the unit on depot after it’s window.

 

[TheWalrus]

This may be slightly off topic, but if 175s do replace GWR HSTs, will the HSTs be withdrawn entirely or maybe some will go to Scotrail for strengthening of their sets or replacements?

 

[43096]

This may be slightly off topic, but if 175s do replace GWR HSTs, will the HSTs be withdrawn entirely or maybe some will go to Scotrail for strengthening of their sets or replacements?

They won’t go to ScotRail.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Withdrawn entirely. Scotrail remain uninterested in taking any more on.

 

[Caaardiff]

How many HSTs are still in service with GWR? Will the 175s just be a replacement for them or will there be surplus in the fleet to cascade other fleet types, freeing up IETs.