Class 175 beyond TfW

[Philip]

Where do you think they will go after they've finished with TfW...or should go?

 

[sprinterguy]

There's a requirement for 18 x 2-car units with "performance and quality equivalent to a two car Class 170" to enter service with Northern from 1st December 2022: There's no more 170s up for grabs in that time period, while the 175s will be coming off lease in time to fulfil that requirement. Assuming that the new trains enter service on time of course, which based on recent experience is dubious. 27 two and three carriage units would be a pleasing increase on the 18 x 2-car units stipulated if Northern wanted to go for the full fleet, and they were interested in end doored stock.

EMR's regional fleet strategy appears to be to hoover up every available Turbostar unit that's going, so as long as that goes to plan I think that they can be discounted from this discussion.

16 x 3-car plus 11 x 2-car units is too small to replace Crosscountry's regional fleet of 22 x 3-car and 7 x 2-car class 170s (as will be) without a shakeup of those services.

Also too small a fleet to replace GWR's full compliment of Network Turbos operating in the west - Otherwise end door stock might be more appropriate on regional services like Cardiff - Portsmouth.

Would there be sufficient units to replace Scotrail's rural class 156 fleet covering the West Highland and Glasgow & South Western routes? Pretty sure there aren't enough to cover all of Scotrail's rural class 156s and 158s, but 3-car units might offer more flexibility to balance demand between Oban and Fort William branches of trains splitting at Crianlarich. There may be issues with clearance and axle loadings on that route, however.

 

[adrock1976]

There's a requirement for 18 x 2-car units with "performance and quality equivalent to a two car Class 170" to enter service with Northern from 1st December 2022: There's no more 170s up for grabs in that time period, while the 175s will be coming off lease in time to fulfil that requirement. Assuming that the new trains enter service on time of course, which based on recent experience is dubious. 27 two and three carriage units would be a pleasing increase on the 18 x 2-car units stipulated if Northern wanted to go for the full fleet, and they were interested in end doored stock.

EMR's regional fleet strategy appears to be to hoover up every available Turbostar unit that's going, so as long as that goes to plan I think that they can be discounted from this discussion.

16 x 3-car plus 11 x 2-car units is too small to replace Crosscountry's regional fleet of 22 x 3-car and 7 x 2-car class 170s (as will be) without a shakeup of those services.

Also too small a fleet to replace GWR's full compliment of Network Turbos operating in the west - Otherwise end door stock might be more appropriate on regional services like Cardiff - Portsmouth.

Would there be sufficient units to replace Scotrail's rural class 156 fleet covering the West Highland and Glasgow & South Western routes? Pretty sure there aren't enough to cover all of Scotrail's rural class 156s and 158s, but 3-car units might offer more flexibility to balance demand between Oban and Fort William branches of trains splitting at Crianlarich. There may be issues with clearance and axle loadings on that route, however.

For Northern, these could be specially dedicated for the ex Lancashire & Yorkshire Calder Valley route via Hebden Bridge (assuming the fleet covers all diagrams with one of each of a 2 and 3 car spare), as there is I believe a Chester - Bradford Interchange/Leeds via Manchester Victoria service. That way, the 175s would still be based at their home depot in Chester.

Regarding the suggestion for the rural lines in Scotland, for the West Highland Line, the 175s would have to have the Radio Electronic Token Block (RETB) equipment installed. I am unsure if there is space for it to be installed on the 175s or not.

 

[sprinterguy]

For Northern, these could be specially dedicated for the ex Lancashire & Yorkshire Calder Valley route via Hebden Bridge (assuming the fleet covers all diagrams with one of each of a 2 and 3 car spare), as there is I believe a Chester - Bradford Interchange/Leeds via Manchester Victoria service. That way, the 175s would still be based at their home depot in Chester.

That sounds like a good shout - I hadn't given it a lot of thought but that's the sort of thing I had in mind as well. The 195s intended for Chester - Bradford that would be displaced could be redeployed elsewhere while the Calder Valley services retain relatively modern air conditioned stock.

Good that it retains a link to Chester depot, too, who seem best placed to continue maintenance of the 175s. Overall Northern seems like a good fit for them that allows them to continue being maintained at the same depot they've spent their whole lives at - One only needs to look at the Hull Trains 180s to see how temperamental Alstom products can become when transferred to a depot with no prior experience of the type.

Regarding the suggestion for the rural lines in Scotland, for the West Highland Line, the 175s would have to have the Radio Electronic Token Block (RETB) equipment installed. I am unsure if there is space for it to be installed on the 175s or not.

Yeah I agree that there would appear to be a lot of stumbling blocks in the way of their introduction to the West Highland line - I was just throwing it out there as alternatives to Northern use seem limited for such a small and specialist fleet.

 

[krus_aragon]

Regarding the suggestion for the rural lines in Scotland, for the West Highland Line, the 175s would have to have the Radio Electronic Token Block (RETB) equipment installed. I am unsure if there is space for it to be installed on the 175s or

I think it could be done; portable RETB sets (for steam locos etc.) exist, so the equipment isn't that big. Certainly a lot smaller and simpler to fit than ERTMS!

That way, the 175s would still be based at their home depot in Chester

Chester's due to house some of TfW's 195s when they arrive, so there may not be room for the 175s to stay too.

That little wrinkle aside, I'm glad to hear of suggestions from others on their future. I haven't much to offer, as I'm based where they'll be leaving, rather than where they may be going...

 

[Mag_seven]

or should go?

The scrap heap - are the 175s not notoriously unreliable and prone to catching fire?

 

[Meerkat]

If Northern don’t need all the 175s do the ROSCOs line up for Northern to take them all, push 195s down to replace 170s, and release 170s to EMR or Chiltern (who are presumably desperate for them).

 

[sprinterguy]

If Northern don’t need all the 175s do the ROSCOs line up for Northern to take them all, push 195s down to replace 170s, and release 170s to EMR or Chiltern (who are presumably desperate for them).

That's a good point. The 27 class 175s are only 9 units (Though 34 carriages, so almost double on a carriage by carriage basis) more than Northern's base requirement for additional units, so not enough to release all 16 of Northern's class 170s, but add in a few additional ex-TfW 158s, which come off lease shortly after the 175s, and you'd have enough if the DfT or Roscos were leaning on Northern in that way. EMR, Crosscountry and Chiltern would all seem like ready takers of additional Turbostar units.

 

[krus_aragon]

The scrap heap - are the 175s not notoriously unreliable and prone to catching fire?

More prone than average, but they have managed to operate most regional services in North and South Wales for over a decade without any huge meltdowns. They've been behaving a darned sight better than the 180s! There's a few years' useful service in them yet.

 

[sprinterguy]

More prone than average, but they have managed to operate most regional services in North and South Wales for over a decade without any huge meltdowns. They've been behaving a darned sight better than the 180s! There's a few years' useful service in them yet.

To be fair to them in recent years they've put in miles between failure figures that are about double what any of TFW/ATW's Sprinter fleets typically achieve - There's been a bit of a drop in the last year or so, but still significantly more reliable than TFW's next reliable fleet, the 150s.

 

[hexagon789]

My bet is Northern, they can use them to free up some 158s which can then be cascaded to free up some 156s and so on...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The scrap heap - are the 175s not notoriously unreliable and prone to catching fire?

They're not quite as bad as the 180s, possibly due to the smaller engine meaning everything isn't as crammed in underneath.

Assuming they are reliable and get a tarting up (the Welsh ones are now VERY scruffy) and enough luggage space (the racks are useless) they'd be great for "Northern Connect" - then get the fast-accelerating 195s on stopping services where they can make a real difference. They have of course operated the "Northern Connect" / NorthWest Express services before, and were well received on those.

 

[Philip]

Could FGW or SWT be options, to replace their 158 fleets?

Regarding Northern use, would they keep to timings sufficiently in comparison with 195s or 185s on the Calder Valley routes? They aren't as good in acceleration.

 

[krus_aragon]

To be fair to them in recent years they've put in miles between failure figures that are about double what any of TFW/ATW's Sprinter fleets typically achieve - There's been a bit of a drop in the last year or so, but still significantly more reliable than TFW's next reliable fleet, the 150s.

Agreed: they're slightly more prone to under-carriage fire, but still very good overall.

 

[Meerkat]

Could FGW or SWT be options, to replace their 158 fleets?

SWR will surely go bi-mode!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do 158s even need replacing yet? I'd say they've got another 10 years in them.

 

[30907]

Regarding Northern use, would they keep to timings sufficiently in comparison with 195s or 185s on the Calder Valley routes? They aren't as good in acceleration.

A major issue on the Calder Valley would be dwell times: getting rid of end doors is long overdue on Leeds (and Manchester) commuter routes howver nice they might be other routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A major issue on the Calder Valley would be dwell times: getting rid of end doors is long overdue on Leeds (and Manchester) commuter routes howver nice they might be other routes.

Other than the stop at Wigan, the Barrows and Windermeres aren't really commuter routes, though. People may commute on them, but then people commute on Avanti West Coast.

The Calder Valley is a local stopping service which would be best with 195s. There are plenty of express services in Northernland where 175s would work.

 

[LOL The Irony]

the 175s would still be based at their home depot in Chester.

Good that it retains a link to Chester depot, too, who seem best placed to continue maintenance of the 175s.

Chester is going to become a CAF depot. Next nearest Alstom depots are Longsight & Edge Hill.

Chester's due to house some of TfW's 195s when they arrive, so there may not be room for the 175s to stay too.

It's going to be their base like it is now for the 175's.

 

[LOL The Irony]

There are plenty of express services in Northernland where 175s would work.

The old routes they operated under FNW could be a start. I'm thinking Airport - Barrow/Windermere and Mid-Cheshire line services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The old routes they operated under FNW could be a start. I'm thinking Airport - Barrow/Windermere and Mid-Cheshire line services.

Any gauging issues with Ormskirk/Blackpool S/Colne? If not, 2 car sets would be fine for those.

 

[krus_aragon]

It's going to be their base like it is now for the 175's.

Yes, but some 197s will be based/maintained elsewhere too (Machynlleth).

 

[hooverboy]

SWR will surely go bi-mode!!

Definitely agree.
It would make sense for them to talk to southern to get some commonality in bi mode specs...southern will need them for the cl171 replacements for east grinstead/uckfield.

CL175 might work for chiltern,as might cl180 due to oxley being an alstom service depot, but the 175's would likely to be restricted to working out of moor street to surrounding area, not much need for them at marylebone end.
the chiltern franchise is up in 2022, but I suspect they'll keep 165's because they have the necessary tripcock equipment for the amersham route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would 175s not be allowed into Marylebone? Don't they fit and is the work to make them fit infeasible? They would seem, with a good refurb, to be entirely suited to replacing the LHCS and 168s on fast Birmingham services - end doors, comfortable seats, IC layout, good views and because most people on Chiltern are day-tripping no great need for luggage space (which is a bit poor due to the very small overheads).

(To be honest I'm sort of surprised TfW are getting rid - with 16 3-car sets they could easily reform those, moving the centre cars around to get 3 x 5-car, which could be tarted up with 1st and a kitchen added for the services which will use Mk4s).

 

[hooverboy]

Why would 175s not be allowed into Marylebone? Don't they fit and is the work to make them fit infeasible? They would seem, with a good refurb, to be entirely suited to replacing the LHCS and 168s on fast Birmingham services - end doors, comfortable seats, IC layout, good views and because most people on Chiltern are day-tripping no great need for luggage space (which is a bit poor due to the very small overheads).

(To be honest I'm sort of surprised TfW are getting rid - with 16 3-car sets they could easily reform those, moving the centre cars around to get 3 x 5-car, which could be tarted up with 1st and a kitchen added for the services which will use Mk4s).

never said they shouldn't be allowed into marylebone.

Chiltern's problem is capacity.they need lots more.
2-3 car sets you could perhaps justify on local services like aylesburys out of marylebone.2 cars 165's are rammed usually, but 175's don't have tripcocks, hence my musings on using them for maybe birmingham-oxford instead.
for the london-birmingham's they need minimum 6 car,preferably 8 car sets.Anything that stops by bicester village needs 4 car minimum too

 

[Meerkat]

In last months Modern Railways Angel are said to have suggested hybrid conversions for the 175s.
As they are working on the 165 hybrids with Chiltern maybe hybrid 175s replacing loco hauled would make sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

never said they shouldn't be allowed into marylebone.

Chiltern's problem is capacity.they need lots more.
2-3 car sets you could perhaps justify on local services like aylesburys out of marylebone.2 cars 165's are rammed usually, but 175's don't have tripcocks, hence my musings on using them for maybe birmingham-oxford instead.
for the london-birmingham's they need minimum 6 car,preferably 8 car sets.Anything that stops by bicester village needs 4 car minimum too

Chiltern use a collection of 2, 3 and 4-car sets to make formations of I think up to 8 car, maybe 9 - they are quite good at matching length to demand. It'd be no different with Class 175s. Gangways aren't that important because it is, south of Banbury at least, primarily a DOO railway and that is unlikely to change. It's also a 2-track railway for almost all of its length, which means if the driver needs to get into a different unit he can walk along the ballast to do so. Catering is not provided so there's no trolley needing to get through.

Tripcocks are only needed on the Aylesbury branch.

 

[anamyd]

In last months Modern Railways Angel are said to have suggested hybrid conversions for the 175s.
As they are working on the 165 hybrids with Chiltern maybe hybrid 175s replacing loco hauled would make sense.

I'm assuming Diesel/electric hybrid...? If so, I wonder what engines the hybrid 175s would have for the Diesel part of their traction...? I also wonder if the original exhaust piping (after the new SCR/AdBlue emissions equipment) would be retained...? I hope that it would be; I love those phat twin-stacks on the 175s And then if they do opt for the "standard" 13L MTU 6H (as was already implied for the 165/170 hybrid conversions and used in the 172/195/196/197 DMUs) as the Diesel part, that could be quite the combination (when the Diesel engines are on, that is )

(To be honest I'm sort of surprised TfW are getting rid - with 16 3-car sets they could easily reform those, moving the centre cars around to get 3 x 5-car, which could be tarted up with 1st and a kitchen added for the services which will use Mk4s).

I think TfW just want to rid themselves of every ex-ATW unit and class, so that after 2023 or whenever it is, no-one can say that they're operating "ex-Arriva" trains.