Class 172 Project - Sounds

[XCTurbostar]

Hi All,

Im working on a project to gather sounds for a Class 172 (Train Sim :rolland would be grateful if the following could be answered;

- ZF 6-Speed Gearbox, What speed do they change gear at and also what RPM?
- Air Expulsion sounds, What causes these and are they controlled by something or are they random?
- Horn - Is it the same as a 170?

I also need some cab images but I won't ask you all that

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Darkinsider]

Gearbox, 6th speed does not operate. Cant remember gear change speeds other than 15, 25, 35 will confirm. There are exceptions though. Some Stroke 2's do change gear at different speeds (even between tbe two vehicles) they can change at 20, 30, 40. Makes leaf fall a little frustrating as somedrivers back the power down a notch as they near the gear change as the units spin up easier at the higher rev point in the gear.

No control over air expulsion as its the air dryer removing moisture from air system. Unless you hear theslight hisses when the brakes are released when moving off

Horn is different tone and loudness to a 170. They also seem to vary between vehicle as they get older some msy sound 170 ish

 

[Billy A]

Gearbox, 6th speed does not operate.

That depends on where you are. London Overground ones won't get the chance to reach sixth but others can and do.
There's one here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdFCQE61mSA which gets to sixth about a minute and a half in.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Got another question for you guys. If a driver accelerates from a stand with a Class 172 and reaches 15mph in notch 3 and then increases to notch 7 does the engine drop a gear (kickdown) to accelerate quicker?

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Darkinsider]

We where always told from the beggining that 6th Gear was disabled. I am not fitter but i understand that when the train pulls away it's on a torque converter then 1st gear on the ZF kicks in a 15mph. Gear changes are 15 25 35 55/60 but un sure of next. Units easily reach 100 but appear to self limit (perhaps gearbox limits as wants to change up as top of rev range which would explain why some units dont'quite make 100 kinda crawl crom 96 to 98/99)

Gearbox does not kickdown if a higher notch is selected. Box changes according to if the speed rising or falling. This causes a particular problem if line speed is at gear change speed as they can change up then down almost as one action. if you get to say 25 then throttle back it can snatch (although better after mods)

 

[Billy A]

I'm still doubtful about sixth gear not engaging. There are certainly five steps in the video. Granted one could be the torque converter locking up but this doesn't drop the revs much and isn't usually so noticeable. I've been on buses with the same gearbox and they sound just like the train with the same five changes up.

 

[455driver]

Got another question for you guys. If a driver accelerates from a stand with a Class 172 and reaches 15mph in notch 3 and then increases to notch 7 does the engine drop a gear (kickdown) to accelerate quicker?

Thanks,
Ross

Engines dont 'drop a gear', gearboxes do.
And that from somebody who has rail engineer in their avatar.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Thread here has abit more information about the characteristics of the units: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124568

Covers the fact that they aren't great at coasting and the following applies when using the reverser. (kindly posted by another member on that thread):

"7 seconds to engage direction.
7 seconds to return to neutral
7 seconds to re-engage direction"

You can usually hear when it is engaged/disengaged as the revs change momentarily.

I didn't actually know that the 1st gear wasn't actually a gear but the work of the torque converter. I was always under the impression they set off in 1st gear once put into forward, and it is 6 speed.

They tend to get into what I belive was sixth around the 55 mark as already stated. If you from Moor Street down to Acocks Green for example with no stops at Small Heath/Tyseley you'll commonly hit that gear as line speed limit down there is 60mph including the crossover from the Up/Down Snow Hill lines. Dip below the 55 mark typically and it'll go back to the gear below.

If there is another upper gear, why would they disable it and can't see the point in it really if they hit 100 fine?

In regards to the project it sounds interesting - please tell me it is to try and replace the sounds of the recent publication of a 172 model...

 

[XCTurbostar]

Thread here has abit more information about the characteristics of the units: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124568

Thanks, that link has some good information I will definitely use.

I didn't actually know that the 1st gear wasn't actually a gear but the work of the torque converter. I was always under the impression they set off in 1st gear once put into forward, and it is 6 speed.

That makes sense now, I was watching the video and presuming that it started in 1st Gear when pulling a way like a car would.

They tend to get into what I believe was sixth around the 55 mark as already stated. If you from Moor Street down to Acocks Green for example with no stops at Small Heath/Tyseley you'll commonly hit that gear as line speed limit down there is 60mph including the crossover from the Up/Down Snow Hill lines. Dip below the 55 mark typically and it'll go back to the gear below.

I'll be recording sounds between Birmingham Snow Hill and Birmingham Moor Street as well as the line towards solihull. To be honest, it is going to be very difficult to obtain the cab sounds and the horn. Especially when after emailing London Midland, they aren't at all interesting in helping with recordings.

In regards to the project it sounds interesting - please tell me it is to try and replace the sounds of the recent publication of a 172 model...

It is yes. Thanks for your comments, if you can help further in any way, id really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Dhassell]

Hopefully this site might be helpful for you...
http://www.dawlishtrains.com/cabs---secong-gen-dmu.html

 

[Billy A]

That makes sense now, I was watching the video and presuming that it started in 1st Gear when pulling a way like a car would.


Thanks,
Ross

That's exactly what it does though isn't it? Starts in first and then makes five changes to arrive at sixth. These gearboxes were commonly used in buses and they sound just the same there. Why anybody would want to disable top gear in a train capable of 100 mph I can't imagine.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Thanks, that link has some good information I will definitely use.

That makes sense now, I was watching the video and presuming that it started in 1st Gear when pulling a way like a car would.

I'll be recording sounds between Birmingham Snow Hill and Birmingham Moor Street as well as the line towards solihull. To be honest, it is going to be very difficult to obtain the cab sounds and the horn. Especially when after emailing London Midland, they aren't at all interesting in helping with recordings.

It is yes. Thanks for your comments, if you can help further in any way, id really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Ross

You're welcome. Ah cool - good luck with it! Yeah won't be easy getting the cab sounds. Two things I can recommend however that may help with it. Firstly, there's this video of a 172 on test filmed from the cab, which has some clear sound to it actually. Don't know if it's useable though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeJq7kx4usI

The other thing is that Video 225 Studios, who do a lot of good quality drivers eye views (with no commentary AFAIK), have filmed the Gospel Oak to Barking line with a LO 172. Haven't got it myself, but may be worth a punt, and you could with their permission use the sounds.

DTG are trying with LM to get a license; on this link https://train-simulator.com/londons-turbostars/ in the comments section they say;

"We currently do not have a license with London Midland to reproduce their brand but are working to obtain one. Therefore, there will not be a LM Class 172 for the timebeing."

Would be nice in the future to have one, particularly if DTG did the Snow Hill lines, although JustTrains are progressing well on the Chiltern Mainline release.

If I can provide further help I'll be sure to contact you.

That's exactly what it does though isn't it? Starts in first and then makes five changes to arrive at sixth. These gearboxes were commonly used in buses and they sound just the same there. Why anybody would want to disable top gear in a train capable of 100 mph I can't imagine.

That's what I've been thinking - I've always thought it'd work just like a normal gearbox, setting off in 1st, like any other DMU, which all set off in 1st gear.

 

[XCTurbostar]

That's what I've been thinking - I've always thought it'd work just like a normal gearbox, setting off in 1st, like any other DMU, which all set off in 1st gear.

Just been reading through the Class 172 Datasheets on the Porterbrook website and found Transmission: ZF Ecomat 5HP902
https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/brochure/170/issue1/
On the ZF Friedrichshafen AG website it lists it as a 5-Speed Auto meaning that it cant be in first gear when pulling away until the first audible gear change.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Billy A]

That's interesting.
The first digit in ZF gearbox names is the number of gears so a 5HP902 is indeed a five speed and it's one of the options MTU have with their engines. They sell what they call a Power Pack with engine, gearbox and other bits as a complete package as here: https://mtu-online-shop.com/print/3235271_MTU_Rail_spec_6H1800.pdf
Interestingly the gearbox option for the engine that Porterbrook say is fitted (the 360kw one) isn't a ZF unit at all so maybe their brochure shouldn't be taken as gospel.
That doesn't take from the fact that the video I posted lets you hear what sound like five gearchanges. Assuming it really is a five speed then it starts in first, works its way up to fifth and then possibly locks the torque converter which will sound like another gearchange.
There's no question of not starting in first. It has to be in a gear. A torque converter is the equivalent of a clutch and serves to transmit power from the engine to the box. If you lock the converter it then works much as a clutch would but it's not an alternative to a gearbox (well, it could be but not in this application). The train is not therefore starting using "something else" and then switching to first gear.