Class 158 engine.

[davido39]

I recently have travelled on both Scotrail and Northern members of the class 158 family, something struck me. Is it me or can you no longer hear the familiar whine of the engine anymore?

 

[anthony263]

Converted them to emu's have they ?

I have noticed that ATW's seem a little quieter than they used to be

 

[455driver]

Converted them to emu's have they ?

Dont be silly, they have been fitted with hydrogen fuel cells!

Or more likely its been that fu fulippin cold lately the cooling fans are not running at maximum speed.

 

[anthony263]

Dont be silly, they have been fitted with hydrogen fuel cells!
.

Do we really want to give some of those in the dft any idea's.

I am surprised Mr Baker has come up with this as a means of avoiding electrification,(Oh hang on didnt the dft suggest this a few years ago before the industry managed to knock some common sense into them) :roll:

 

[BestWestern]

FGW's definitely still make maximum noise!

 

[edwin_m]

Do we really want to give some of those in the dft any idea's.

I thought they were considering liquid phlogiston or bionic duckweed?

I believe the whining noise is not actually the engine but part of the auxiliary system, possibly the generator or compressor? In my experience it varies from unit to unit depending on whether this component is in good condition, and also is much more audible if you happen to be sitting above it.

 

[starrymarkb]

Depends on the engine... some have Perkins and others have the 400hp Cummins which IIRC is less whiney

 

[fgwrich]

Dont be silly, they have been fitted with hydrogen fuel cells!

Or more likely its been that fu fulippin cold lately the cooling fans are not running at maximum speed.

Don't say that, Mr Baker of the DfT will get ideas!... Oh wait, he already is looking at JR Hybrid units.

(And no, im not joking either!)

But as starrymarkb has said, it probably depends on which unit has which engine or if certain mechainical parts are fully working. Some units will have the Cummins NTA855R (350 hp engine), others will have the Perkins 2006-TWH (350 hp engine) and others will have the 400 hp Cummins NTA855R3 engines fitted.

 

[455driver]

I thought all the FGW units had the 350hp Cummins engine now?

158701-158814 Cummins 350hp (all operators)
158815-158862 Perkins 350hp (Northern,Arriva Wales, East Midlands trains)
185863-158872 Cummins 400hp (East Midlands Trains (4), Scotrail (5), Northern (1) bet thats popular )

 

[WillPS]

Seems mad to have 3 different engines in one production line. Was there a shortage or something?

 

[driver9000]

The whine is still there on the 350hp Cummins engined Northern 158s
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Seems mad to have 3 different engines in one production line. Was there a shortage or something?

I believe it was down to the dual sourcing policy BR employed.

 

[Helvellyn]

Seems mad to have 3 different engines in one production line. Was there a shortage or something?

As Driver 9000 says, BR adopted a policy of dual supplier on a lot of stock, so opted for both Cummins and Perkins engines. If I recall, the 400hp Cummins units were originally intended to be used out of Cardiff on services through the Welsh Marches to the North West. However, once part of the 158 order was diverted to Network SouthEast the majority of these units ended up with NSE working out of Salisbury, with only ten 2-car units placed with Regional Railways.

As to the dual supplier policy, some examples I can recall off the top of my head: -

• Class 43 power cars 43124-43152 fitted with GEC G417AZ traction motors vice the Brush TMH68-46 traction motors fitted to the rest of the fleet.
• Class 37/7s 37796-37803 (and 37905/906) fitted with GEC G564AZ Main Alternators vice the Brush BA1005A Main Alternators fitted to the 37/4, 37/5 and rest of the 37/7 and 37/9 fleet (would have been a lot more GEC examples if the 37 refurbishment scheme hadn't been curtailed, including some 37/5s)
• Class 314 units 314201-206 fitted with Brush TM61-53 Traction Motors vice the GEC G310AZ Traction motors of 314207-314216!
• Class 315 units 315842-315861 fitted with GEC G310AZ Traction Motors vice the Brush TM61-53 Traction Motors of the rest of the fleet.
• Class 465/0 and Class 465/1 fleets being built by BREL/ABB with Brush electrical equipment and the Class 465/2 and 466 fleets being built by Metro-Cammell with GEC-Alsthom electrical equipment.

I think some of this stemmed from BR wanting to avoid being stuck in a monopoly supply situation. I recall from reading a book about the Mark 2s that one of the issues BR faced with introducing air-conditioning was the high cost of the air-con units supplied by Stones and their desire to encourage Temperature Ltd to come on board as a competitor. I can see some logic if one fleet has a different supplier to another fleet, but the Class 314 example I gave just seems crazy given that a fleet of 16 units based in Scotland was fitted with two different types of Traction Motor.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As to the dual supplier policy, some examples I can recall off the top of my head: -

• Class 43 power cars 43124-43152 fitted with GEC G417AZ traction motors vice the Brush TMH68-46 traction motors fitted to the rest of the fleet.
• Class 37/7s 37796-37803 (and 37905/906) fitted with GEC G564AZ Main Alternators vice the Brush BA1005A Main Alternators fitted to the 37/4, 37/5 and rest of the 37/7 and 37/9 fleet (would have been a lot more GEC examples if the 37 refurbishment scheme hadn't been curtailed, including some 37/5s)
• Class 314 units 314201-206 fitted with Brush TM61-53 Traction Motors vice the GEC G310AZ Traction motors of 314207-314216!
• Class 315 units 315842-315861 fitted with GEC G310AZ Traction Motors vice the Brush TM61-53 Traction Motors of the rest of the fleet.
• Class 465/0 and Class 465/1 fleets being built by BREL/ABB with Brush electrical equipment and the Class 465/2 and 466 fleets being built by Metro-Cammell with GEC-Alsthom electrical equipment.

I think some of this stemmed from BR wanting to avoid being stuck in a monopoly supply situation. I recall from reading a book about the Mark 2s that one of the issues BR faced with introducing air-conditioning was the high cost of the air-con units supplied by Stones and their desire to encourage Temperature Ltd to come on board as a competitor. I can see some logic if one fleet has a different supplier to another fleet, but the Class 314 example I gave just seems crazy given that a fleet of 16 units based in Scotland was fitted with two different types of Traction Motor.

The whole Networker order (class 465) was split between Metro-Cammell and BREL/ABB.
The 155/156 Sprinter fleets were also split between Leyland (155) and MetCamm (156).
And much good it did them too, given the faults with the 155s.

I thought one other reason was the possibility of a supplier going insolvent and not being able to produce spares.
The Hunslet class 323 EMU was a case of "all eggs in one basket" though.
Hunslet did go broke but somehow the 323s soldier on.

 

[Ben.A.98]

The 158s around Inverness and Aberdeen operated by Scotrail still really whine.

 

[michael769]

It is simply good business practice to have more than one supplier for any critical service or equipment. Relying on one means that if they go bust, or otherwise become an unsuitable source you risk being left high and dry as you struggle to bring a new inexperienced source on board. It is far easier to get an existing supplier withe experience to scale up than it is to get someone to start from scratch.

Relying on a single supplier for anything other than readily available off the shelf commodities is idiocy IMO.

 

[dk1]

East Midlands 158s where smooth & quiet as always when i used them between Ely & Norwich today. Not sure if they had extra sound proofing or are just well maintained but are a real credit to Stagecoach.

 

[TOCDriver]

The whine could be because the turbo's are on their last legs or are in poor condition. There should be no significant whine coming from these engines if they're serviced and the turbos are nice and healthy. I would have to listen to them to be sure it was turbo whine though.

 

[AlexS]

My understanding is that a load of the 158s were built with the Perkins engines as a testbed for the Network Turbo design (they share the same engine). I may be wrong.

These are by far the loudest variant of the class I think (I hear all 3 types regularly!).

 

[anthony263]

My understanding is that a load of the 158s were built with the Perkins engines as a testbed for the Network Turbo design (they share the same engine). I may be wrong.

These are by far the loudest variant of the class I think (I hear all 3 types regularly!).

I thought some of the class 158 engines sounded like a class 165/166

 

[cjmillsnun]

East Midlands 158s where smooth & quiet as always when i used them between Ely & Norwich today. Not sure if they had extra sound proofing or are just well maintained but are a real credit to Stagecoach.

I will be fair, if they are maintained like SWTs 158/159 fleet then they will be very well looked after indeed. Stagecoach do seem to take care of their units.

 

[starrymarkb]

Seems mad to have 3 different engines in one production line. Was there a shortage or something?

The Cummins are very similar, I can't remember what gives the extra 50hp? Bigger Turbo?

 

[TOCDriver]

The Cummins are very similar, I can't remember what gives the extra 50hp? Bigger Turbo?

No. Probably the wastegate is set up a little differently (It regulates the gas pressure from the turbo entering the engine - more pressure equals more boost which equals more power and torque, as long as the engine block and pistons / big ends and bearings can handle it - and a 50bhp increase on an engine like that is nothing in terms of the structural integrity of the block; these engines are engineered for longevity so 50bhp increase is nothing to them )

 

[455driver]

No. Probably the wastegate is set up a little differently (It regulates the gas pressure from the turbo entering the engine - more pressure equals more boost which equals more power and torque, as long as the engine block and pistons / big ends and bearings can handle it - and a 50bhp increase on an engine like that is nothing in terms of the structural integrity of the block; these engines are engineered for longevity so 50bhp increase is nothing to them )

Nothing to do with fact that the 350s rev to 1900 and the 400s rev to 2100 then!

 

[driver9000]

The whine could be because the turbo's are on their last legs or are in poor condition. There should be no significant whine coming from these engines if they're serviced and the turbos are nice and healthy. I would have to listen to them to be sure it was turbo whine though.

I've always been led to believe that the whine comes from the alternator/air conditioning system below the solebar. You can hear it when the engine is started up or when the Drivers shuts off and the engine returns to idle.

 

[SprinterMan]

Wikipedia has some decent info about which units have which engines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_158

A total of 182 units were built. The majority were built as two-car sets. 17 units were built as three-car units; eight of these units have since had the centre car removed, while another eight have been upgraded to be Class 159s. The final ten units were built specifically for West Yorkshire PTE Metro services around Leeds.

There were three varieties of unit when built. The standard batch, two- and three-car units (158701—158814 and 158901—158910) had 350 hp (260 kW) Cummins engines. The next batch (158815—158862) were built as non-standard to enable 350 hp (260 kW) Perkins engines to be fitted. The final batch (158863—158872) were given higher-powered Cummins engines of 400 hp (300 kW), as it was originally intended that these units would work the steeply graded Welsh Marches Line. Another 22 of these higher-powered units were built, and became three-car Class 159 trains. Over time, the units have become mixed up as franchises changed, and higher- and lower-powered units can be seen working on the same routes. All units use P4-4A and T4-4A bogies.

As far as I can tell, this means all ATW units have the Perkins engines.

Adam

 

[TOCDriver]

Nothing to do with fact that the 350s rev to 1900 and the 400s rev to 2100 then!

revs do not necessarily mean horsepower my friend, especially on a forced induction engine. Much easier to increase boost rather than increase revs on a turbo engine
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've always been led to believe that the whine comes from the alternator/air conditioning system below the solebar. You can hear it when the engine is started up or when the Drivers shuts off and the engine returns to idle.

That's why I would have to listen to the exact noise. One person could define it has a whine and another person not Very difficult to discuss noise on a forum

 

[driver9000]

r
That's why I would have to listen to the exact noise. One person could define it has a whine and another person not Very difficult to discuss noise on a forum

Agreed, but I suspect the sound being discussed is the one that is characteristic of the 158 and has been with them since new rather than a mechanical shortcoming.

 

[455driver]

revs do not necessarily mean horsepower my friend, especially on a forced induction engine. Much easier to increase boost rather than increase revs on a turbo engine

As long as the rest of the engine can take the increase in boost pressure!

An engine that can rev faster should produce more horsepower as long as it is not at the limits.

The 400s on the 158s have bigger radiators and a few other differences to the 350s.