Class 153 'sag'

[SprinterMan]

I heard the reason for the "sag" was due to the use of bus panels to construct a self-supporting train body. British Leyland build quality at it's finest. The 153/155s will probably be scrapped long before the 150/156s because of this.

Adam

 

[bronzeonion]

The windows on the Leyland Sprinters have been criticised for being too high since they were originally introduced as class 155s. I don't think that this has anything to do with the body sag issue, as it would presumably affect the floor height the same as the height of the windows.

I have problems with window height on anything MK3 based! And the only Sprinter I dont have a problem with window height on is a 158!

 

[RAGNARØKR]

I have problems with window height on anything MK3 based! And the only Sprinter I dont have a problem with window height on is a 158!

Agree.

 

[BestWestern]

The reported structural issues of 153s are thought to be one of the reasons that the class is not expected to be put through the major rebuild project that all of the 15X classes will have over the next few years to come in line with disability regulations. There was a debate a while back on here about their possible future role, whether they'll be used as centre cars in other units, have the toilets removed altogether, or be rebuilt after all and formed back into Class 155s. There are other reasons and theories on what might happen and why, but the body sag is certainly one issue.

 

[fgwrich]

I heard the reason for the "sag" was due to the use of bus panels to construct a self-supporting train body. British Leyland build quality at it's finest. The 153/155s will probably be scrapped long before the 150/156s because of this.

Adam

Mind you, some of state of FGW's 150/2s wont be making it too far into the future at this rate unless they receive there C6 overhaul soon. Sadly, 10 years of full bodyside Vinyls has done some of their units no favours, with quite a few rust holes appearing in the bodyside & end panels.

 

[172212]

Mind you, some of state of FGW's 150/2s wont be making it too far into the future at this rate unless they receive there C6 overhaul soon. Sadly, 10 years of full bodyside Vinyls has done some of their units no favours, with quite a few rust holes appearing in the bodyside & end panels.

To be fair I've been on a FGW 150/2 and they looked in pretty good condition, especially when compared to LMs 150 (pre-refurb)

 

[fgwrich]

To be fair I've been on a FGW 150/2 and they looked in pretty good condition, especially when compared to LMs 150 (pre-refurb)

Internally there still in good nick - and it shows the quality of FGW's refurbishments, but it's the exterior i'm talking about. And not just the rather nice local lines vinyls. Some of those 150s are gaining some rather unattractive rust spots - and if the body starts to rot...

Note, i'm not exactly blaming FGW for this, as Wessex Trains body maintenance regime could really be described in a bottle of filler.

LMs 150s will have been in a better condition externally, not so much down to NX's maintenance regimes, but more so because they've never had full body vinyls stuck onto their bodysides - BR Reggie Rail, BR Reggie Rail / Centro, (((Central Trains ))) Lime liveries, nor regulary run near areas of salt spray being blown off of the sea. And when you've got vinyl which has been stuck onto the rubbed down steel bodies - which then develop leaks & spots where water can result in getting stuck, it dosent bring pretty consequences.

 

[richw]

I've heard that under the vinyls ghe body work of fgw 150s somewhat resembled the bodywork of a German car from the late 80s, early 90s, with regards to corrosion.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

 

[fgwrich]

I've heard that under the vinyls ghe body work of fgw 150s somewhat resembled the bodywork of a German car from the late 80s, early 90s, with regards to corrosion.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

Having seen 3 150/2s yesterday. Yep, i can completely agree, just as the inner ends of 150232 will show you. In other words, it's not pretty and is starting to show through. Even one of Exeters fitters i got speaking to reccently was / wasnt supprised at it. I.e the emerging holes.

I'm starting to wonder, that when those Local Lines vinyls have to be peeled off, how much Metalwork will be coming with them.

 

[dubscottie]

I've heard that under the vinyls ghe body work of fgw 150s somewhat resembled the bodywork of a German car from the late 80s, early 90s, with regards to corrosion.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

Many years ago there was an article in one of the railway publications about TPL(?). They painted the 156's, many a london bus etc, using the then new 2-pack paint and the finish was so good it hid the fact that the roofs were rotting!

it bumped up the bill for repairs when they took the paint off!

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Many years ago there was an article in one of the railway publications about TPL(?). They painted the 156's, many a london bus etc, using the then new 2-pack paint and the finish was so good it hid the fact that the roofs were rotting!

it bumped up the bill for repairs when they took the paint off!

Around 1997 I saw a class 455 stripped down. I was told that when a cut was made above the sill, water gushed out. The floor consisted mostly of rust and holes. There was copper ducting laid on the floor which would have aggravated corrosion. Since this corrosion was from the inside, the water must either have been condensation, or have entered through the sliding door pockets, or quite likely both. I don't see what vinyls would have to do with it when corrosion is from the inside. This was a re-run of the problem with the mark 1 doors which was solved by making them out of GRP.

I understand that the fleet was subject to a repair scheme. If this included corrosion resistant paint and provision for drainage, it should have prevented a recurrence.

No idea about their present condition, presumably they would have had any necessary attention when they were refurbished by SWT, but they are the same construction as the 150s. But then so are the HST trailers and mark 3 hauled vehicles which are reported to be in excellent condition apart from the floor in the toilet area. Air con will reduce or eliminate condensation and they do not have sliding door pockets to collect the rain.

 

[BestWestern]

No idea about their present condition, presumably they would have had any necessary attention when they were refurbished by SWT, but they are the same construction as the 150s. But then so are the HST trailers and mark 3 hauled vehicles which are reported to be in excellent condition apart from the floor in the toilet area. Air con will reduce or eliminate condensation and they do not have sliding door pockets to collect the rain.

If you look at FGW's MK3 fleet, many of them are now displaying obvious corrosion beneath the paint around the window pans, though this may be only superficial.

 

[richw]

If you look at FGW's MK3 fleet, many of them are now displaying obvious corrosion beneath the paint around the window pans, though this may be only superficial.

If you compare them to other steel structures of a similar age they have done very well!

 

[BestWestern]

If you compare them to other steel structures of a similar age they have done very well!

I don't dipsute that, it's pretty incredible they're still going at all really! I am surprised though that they weren't given some form of longer lasting rust inhibitor treatment at their rebuild, it does look very unsightly

 

[northwichcat]

The reported structural issues of 153s are thought to be one of the reasons that the class is not expected to be put through the major rebuild project that all of the 15X classes will have over the next few years to come in line with disability regulations. There was a debate a while back on here about their possible future role, whether they'll be used as centre cars in other units, have the toilets removed altogether, or be rebuilt after all and formed back into Class 155s. There are other reasons and theories on what might happen and why, but the body sag is certainly one issue.

If the 153s are inserted in to 156s which have accessible toilets then there is no need to remove any non-accessible toilet. You can have one accessible toilet and one non-accessible toilet as the Desiros do.

How are the few remaining 155s fairing that are in operation with Northern in West Yorks? They might provide an indication relating to whether reforming the 153s in to 155s is a viable option.

 

[158722]

If the 153s are inserted in to 156s which have accessible toilets then there is no need to remove any non-accessible toilet. You can have one accessible toilet and one non-accessible toilet as the Desiros do.

How are the few remaining 155s fairing that are in operation with Northern in West Yorks? They might provide an indication relating to whether reforming the 153s in to 155s is a viable option.

I'd wondered about the 155s too and whether a combined life-extension program on the 153/155s would become viable if the whole fleet was reformed into 3-car units with only 1 car per set having the disabled access toilet. The maths works out with 7 Northern 153s into the 7 155s leaving 63 153 vehicles to be formed into 21 3-car 155s - this would mean only 28 of the 84 153/155 vehicles would need major refurb work, possibly with cabs removed and space used for luggage/fold down seats to compensate for the loss of saloon space because of the new toilet. The outer vehicles could also (ironically in the case of the 153s) loose their cabs and indeed toilets. Concentrate the fleet on fewer operators (GW, EMT & NOR) with 150s & 156s juggled around to maintain fleet numbers at Anglia & LM.

As suggested by the original question posed, will any structural problems make such a project inviable?

 

[Yew]

I don't dipsute that, it's pretty incredible they're still going at all really! I am surprised though that they weren't given some form of longer lasting rust inhibitor treatment at their rebuild, it does look very unsightly

Cathodic protection or something? EMT's 156's where getting a little rusty before the recent rfurbishment, especially near the cab droplights.

 

[Class172]

I was on a LM 153 earlier and when I got off at Droitwich Spa I didn't notice any discernible sag in the bodywork.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Around 1997 I saw a class 455 stripped down.

I am curious as to whether they left the wooden frame members ( that support the internal panelling ) in the bodysides in place at that time or if they replaced them with some other material?

 

[fgwrich]

Around 1997 I saw a class 455 stripped down. I was told that when a cut was made above the sill, water gushed out. The floor consisted mostly of rust and holes. There was copper ducting laid on the floor which would have aggravated corrosion. Since this corrosion was from the inside, the water must either have been condensation, or have entered through the sliding door pockets, or quite likely both. I don't see what vinyls would have to do with it when corrosion is from the inside.
.

At a guess, the water becomming trapped inbetween the Vinyls and the steel body wouldnt be helping. Certainly some of the ex Wessex Units seem to be suffering in that case, especially when the previous Wessex Trains Vinyls were peeling off in cardiff, the bodywork under those vinyls wasnt pretty - including patches of water build up (these are also not pretty, avoid bursting those water filled bubbles).

This is the state of one of the 150/2s at the moment, unfortunatly also a good example of some of the state of the other units at the moment.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

At a guess, the water becomming trapped inbetween the Vinyls and the steel body wouldnt be helping. Certainly some of the ex Wessex Units seem to be suffering in that case, especially when the previous Wessex Trains Vinyls were peeling off in cardiff, the bodywork under those vinyls wasnt pretty - including patches of water build up (these are also not pretty, avoid bursting those water filled bubbles).

This is the state of one of the 150/2s at the moment, unfortunatly also a good example of some of the state of the other units at the moment.

Some of those vinyls depict the train that a lot of us would like to travel on in preference to the train it is actually attached to. Obviously the irony is lost on the PR department.

 

[GospelOak117]

At a guess, the water becomming trapped inbetween the Vinyls and the steel body wouldnt be helping. Certainly some of the ex Wessex Units seem to be suffering in that case, especially when the previous Wessex Trains Vinyls were peeling off in cardiff, the bodywork under those vinyls wasnt pretty - including patches of water build up (these are also not pretty, avoid bursting those water filled bubbles).

This is the state of one of the 150/2s at the moment, unfortunatly also a good example of some of the state of the other units at the moment.

Oh wow!

 

[davido39]

If the 153s are inserted in to 156s which have accessible toilets then there is no need to remove any non-accessible toilet. You can have one accessible toilet and one non-accessible toilet as the Desiros do.

How are the few remaining 155s fairing that are in operation with Northern in West Yorks? They might provide an indication relating to whether reforming the 153s in to 155s is a viable option.

There was a picture in one of the railway magazines (can't think which one it was) a few months back of a West Yorkshire class 155, apparently the class 155's are not fairing to well and are also suffering from body sag. Built on the cheap as is the class 142, only the class 153/155 is more or less the same length as a class 156. If what has been said here about using more or less the same build as the class 142 No wonder the units are sagging. A class 142 is far shorter in length hence no sagging issues!

If eventually this begins to be more of an issue and the sagging gets to a stage where the 153/155 will have to be replaced this means more rolling stock will have to be built. Even the talk of reforming will not solve the problem. There will still be the issue of the sagging unless if and when it is decided to reform the units back to their original designated class 155 the units will also undergo a major rebuild to strengthen the units. There is still going to be a shortfall in units as the 153's single workings will be lost meaning again building more units to meat the shortfall. I may be wrong but this sounds like a lose lose situation because either way its going to cost quite a bit of money for any of these situations.

 

[DXMachina]

Assuming the 153/155 running gear is in line with normal sprinter standards, perhaps this is the rare occasion when a southern railways - style transplant into new carriages is possible?

 

[BestWestern]

Assuming the 153/155 running gear is in line with normal sprinter standards, perhaps this is the rare occasion when a southern railways - style transplant into new carriages is possible?

I don't think that would be allowed any more, not with diesel running units at least. Lots of EU laws to worry about now which mean that any new train must meet emissions laws etc, which would rule out using ancient engines!

This is the state of one of the 150/2s at the moment, unfortunatly also a good example of some of the state of the other units at the moment.

Ouch, I hadn't noticed any that bad I must admit. One would presume that sort of rot in the carriage ends does little for crashworthiness!?

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't think that would be allowed any more, not with diesel running units at least. Lots of EU laws to worry about now which mean that any new train must meet emissions laws etc, which would rule out using ancient engines!

Plus, would it be worth the cost? The 153s/155s will be thirty years old in five years time, and the engines and transmissions only have a finite lifespan.

 

[fgwrich]

Plus, would it be worth the cost? The 153s/155s will be thirty years old in five years time, and the engines and transmissions only have a finite lifespan.

Not only that, but various operators & leasing companies seem to be looking at replacing the Voith T2 11r gearbox in the 158/159 fleets - which presumably could follow on to the Sprinter fleets in due course.

 

[anthony263]

I agree the class 153/155's are looking in a right state and a lot of the class 150's with FGW could do with some work on them. Personally I hate to see how some of Northern's class 150's are.

Truthfully I think a decision about the class 153/155's will have to be made although the question you have to ask is what can we replace them with, class 150's? perhaps or could we see a case of class 158's working services on heart of wales line etc (I think a 158 is much better on the route than a class 150 or 153).

Maybe we can ask the Chineese of even Hitachi if they can build us some cheap DMU's or in the case of FGW perhaps look at sending a number of class 165's to work some routes in Devon & Cornwall providing they can be cleared.

 

[bronzeonion]

Hitachi please!

 

[junglejames]

Maybe we can ask the Chineese of even Hitachi if they can build us some cheap DMU's or in the case of FGW perhaps look at sending a number of class 165's to work some routes in Devon & Cornwall providing they can be cleared.

Or we build proper units to start with, and make sure they last. They dont need to be expensive, even if they were built over here.
All you are asking for are units ready for the scrap heap sooner than pacers if you look over to China.