Class 142

[jon0844]

But these trains may well have kept some services still running, as well as stopping huge price hikes.

Just look at the poor sods in Southeastern land that paid a levy on their season tickets to help pay for HS1 and the 395s, without ever being able to use HS1 with their ticket. I can't remember how many years in advance of HS1 even opening they had to pay, but I think it might have been at least two years. Season tickets for some people went up over £600 I believe.

It's fair to say that if all the old rickety trains were axed tomorrow with a massive new fleet of shiny trains (that might only be needed for a short time before having no more use, thus ROSCOs would need a pretty quick return) then fares would be going up somewhere.

The 142s might be hated for multiple reasons (I certainly don't like them) but they do a job and they've been kept in a working order and therefore don't need to be replaced for anything else other than not complying with more modern regulations.

You could argue about their crash worthiness, but there's no deadline for getting rid of stock that isn't as safe as newer stock - so they won't be going anywhere because of that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 142s might be hated for multiple reasons (I certainly don't like them) but they do a job and they've been kept in a working order and therefore don't need to be replaced for anything else other than not complying with more modern regulations.

You could argue about their crash worthiness, but there's no deadline for getting rid of stock that isn't as safe as newer stock - so they won't be going anywhere because of that.

Am I alone on this thread in actually remembering the people with disabilities for whom the Act was enacted ? Were the Government wrong at the time of the said enactment to pass such an Act with these unfortunate people in mind ?

We are not talking of a couple of years back in time with regard to the implications of this matter, but of a much longer period of time to attend to matters that 2019 would be seen to require adherence.

 

[jon0844]

Reading that, I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with what I've said or what I'm actually trying to say!

I'm agreeing that they need to be changed because of the accessibility issue, but that without that problem (i.e. they were accessible) then they'd be fine to keep running for many more years.

Grandfather rights appear to make it okay for a train that isn't as safe as a newer one to keep in service, but there's no excuse for keeping a train that some people can't easily board and travel on.

Accessibility (or disabled access as I once referrred to it) has always been something I've taken an interest in. My mother was in a wheelchair for a couple of years, and - while it's not on the same scale - when I had an accident myself, which was merely a sprained ankle, for a fair time I suddenly saw the whole public transport network in a different light. Stairs became a problem and I needed to find a hand rail to take the weight off my foot, and it was a real eye opener.

But within a fortnight I was back to normal, which is not something everyone can be so fortunate to be.

The same applies for anyone that struggles to walk, or use stairs, who might be visually impaired or deaf. And it has additional benefits, such as aiding those with bags or buggies - making transport more accessible for all, not just the disabled.

Personally, I think the 'deadline' for making all rolling stock accessible was far too generous and has resulted in a fair degree of heel kicking and inaction.

 

[Dunc108]

Cumbrian Coast has been bogie stock for a good while - I guess Morecombe - Lancaster - Skipton etc might be a contender for longest route , along with Carlisle - Newcastle and extensions to the coast.

142s arent as frequent at Morecambe as they used to be, but they do appear on the odd Leeds diagram. its usualy 153s, 156s & 150s to Morecambe these days.

 

[northwichcat]

But these trains may well have kept some services still running, as well as stopping huge price hikes.

Certainly not the case. Northern increase their fares at the maximum permitted average % every year regardless of whether they are Pacer operated or class 323 operated.

Although, FGW did freeze all local fares one year (but not just those on Pacer lines.)

 

[TEW]

FGW local fares in the far South West were significantly lowered shortly after FGW took over and have only had relatively minor increases ever since.

 

[daccer]

Read the thread and have a couple of points to make - not from any standpoint and with little knowledge of some of the technical issues.

The DDA compliancy as laid out in the act - does this cover the stations being used as well as the trains. I would propose that many of the stations currently being served by non-compliant units such as 142's are unmanned and possibly not accessible to wheelchair users et al. If the act does ensure the trains are DDA compliant could there be a situation where those people it is aimed at protecting cannot get onto the station to get onto the train.

Growth seems to be continuing unabated. This means plans have to be amended as much of this growth was not expected. I am sure that come 2019 if we have seen another 25-30% of growth the Govt will find a way of amending the ACT or providing a loophole to allow these units to continue. The outcry if they were scrapped whilst overcrowding gets worse would be a thing to behold - see FGW and the reaction when some units were laid up due to the Dft.

Lastly re-openings are going to happen. They will tend to be non-electrified to keep costs down. The availability of 'cheaper' older units to run services might be the tipping point in the business case and as such some service is better than no service.

 

[fowler9]

What is the score with the DDA. My local station, West Allerton, only has stairs to access all 4 of the platforms. Will my local station be closed at the same time the 142's are retired?

 

[455driver]

What is the score with the DDA. My local station, West Allerton, only has stairs to access all 4 of the platforms. Will my local station be closed at the same time the 142's are retired?

Stations will only be made compliant where it is practical.

 

[northwichcat]

What is the score with the DDA. My local station, West Allerton, only has stairs to access all 4 of the platforms. Will my local station be closed at the same time the 142's are retired?

DDA has been incorporated in to the new Equalities Act. The end of 2019 date applies to train carriages only based on the fact that all pre-1990 stock should have by then either been withdrawn or had an extensive refurbishment.

The 2019 date can't be extended, as some people think. However, an exemption order can be granted by the Secretary of State of Transport. When Philip Hammond had that position he implied that exemption orders would be used for trains with minor infringements which are due to be replaced in CP6.

 

[fowler9]

Many thanks for the advice folks. It only really popped in to my head this evening. Anyone with a mobility impairment will struggle at West Allerton.

 

[northwichcat]

Many thanks for the advice folks. It only really popped in to my head this evening. Anyone with a mobility impairment will struggle at West Allerton.

West Allerton is staffed from first train to last train so station staff should be able to assist as and when it's appropriate to do so. The station also has help points.

If it's not possible to get disabled passengers between the exit and the platform they require Northern would be required to either:
1. Allow the passenger to double back e.g. allow someone to do Liverpool Lime St-South Parkway-West Allerton.
2. If the above wouldn't work arrange for a complimentary taxi to the nearest accessible station (Liverpool South Parkway.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 2019 date can't be extended, as some people think. However, an exemption order can be granted by the Secretary of State of Transport. When Philip Hammond had that position he implied that exemption orders would be used for trains with minor infringements which are due to be replaced in CP6.

Would what is required for the Class 142 Pacers be possibly described as remedying minor infringements...surely not..hock:

 

[northwichcat]

Would what is required for the Class 142 Pacers be possibly described as remedying minor infringements...surely not..hock:

The best example I can think of on a Northern train is the toilet on the refurbished 150s - it allows disabled passengers to use it but doesn't meet the latest standards. Also with the 150s being 35 years old in 2019 there's a high chance if they are in service in 2020 that they will be withdrawn soon after.

 

[yorksrob]

One could argue that a minor infringement is anything that doesn't actually prevent someone disabled from travelling on the said train. And judging by the number of disabled people who actually use pacers (including those with push chairs, heavy luggage etc) that could be said to include all of their infringements.

 

[starrymarkb]

I could take a hit at Arriva if you want, it doesnt matter how much money you spend on 150s, 153s and 158s, there horrible trains. I only like their 175, I dont mind modern diesels. Ive never had a 30 year old car, so why would a train be the same.

Have you ever tried an SWT unit?

 

[northwichcat]

Have you ever tried an SWT unit?

The ATW 158 refurbishment is to the same standard as the EMT 158 refurbishment.
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One could argue that a minor infringement is anything that doesn't actually prevent someone disabled from travelling on the said train.

Do you remember the infamous case of the disabled passenger who complained that the guard refused to put down the ramp for him? The problem was the train was a Pacer and if he had boarded it he wouldn't have been able to alight at Guide Bridge, which is where he wanted to go.

Pacers actually cause an issue with platform rebuilding and 'harrington humps' as if you make the platform the right height for 15xs, 16xs, 17xs and 18xs then you'd have to step down (from the platform to the lower step on the Pacer) and then back up when boarding a Pacer.

 

[ivanhoe]

What is the optimum period for agreeing to replace a whole fleet which will never be DDA compliant to having these trains available by 2019?

I would argue that the time in question is nearer 5 years. Given that it will be election time in 2015, I suspect that we won't hear anything until 2015. The tender process will take up to 12 months ,followed by upto a further 12 months in agreeing contracts.Then building the trains will probably take another 3 years. My point is that the process would have to start now to meet the deadline! I believe any Secretary of State will probably have to allow an extension to the deadline.

 

[Bevan Price]

What is the longest journey for which a Pacer is diagrammed these days?


Which was another Pacer!

In addition to services mentioned elsewhere, there is still one through (15:26) Carlisle - Newcastle - Middlesbrough service yaking 2h. 49m.

None diagrammed on Cumbrian Coast, but did occasionally appear in Carlisle the last time I had a North West Rover. Longest possible journey seems to be Lancaster - Carlisle in about 3h. 40m (give or take 5 or so minutes)

And although probably not diagrammed, do Pacers ever still appear on Cardiff to Paignton or Plymouth services ?

 

[yorksrob]

Pacers actually cause an issue with platform rebuilding and 'harrington humps' as if you make the platform the right height for 15xs, 16xs, 17xs and 18xs then you'd have to step down (from the platform to the lower step on the Pacer) and then back up when boarding a Pacer.

Would shortening the doors and building up the stairwell be a relatively minor alteration ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With a certain matter in mind, can someone inform me about the matter of step-access on buses and on the Pacer fleet in terms of disability access and let me know if the deadline for these buses is the same as the Pacer fleet.

 

[185143]

For my local journies I prefer 142's to 150's, I am just weird though I guess.

No you're not! Although maybe it's just us though. My morning train is booked a 142+150. I 99 times out of a 100 travel in the 142. Northern's 150/1's are AWFUL!

 

[Spaceflower]

With a certain matter in mind, can someone inform me about the matter of step-access on buses and on the Pacer fleet in terms of disability access and let me know if the deadline for these buses is the same as the Pacer fleet.

Can't remember getting onto a bus with steps in a long time

 

[northwichcat]

I would argue that the time in question is nearer 5 years. Given that it will be election time in 2015, I suspect that we won't hear anything until 2015.

Depends what gets done in the build up to the election. If Maria Eagle says to Ed Miliband he can boost his support in the North of England by agreeing to replace Pacer trains with newer longer trains, then it might appear in Labour's manifesto which will make it harder for the Conservatives to ignore it.
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With a certain matter in mind, can someone inform me about the matter of step-access on buses and on the Pacer fleet in terms of disability access and let me know if the deadline for these buses is the same as the Pacer fleet.

I think it's 3 years eariler for buses. Although the way things are going in Cheshire East the lower patronage routes which use older buses will probably all have been withdrawn by then!

 

[fowler9]

Depends what gets done in the build up to the election. If Maria Eagle says to Ed Miliband he can boost his support in the North of England by agreeing to replace Pacer trains with newer longer trains, then it might appear in Labour's manifesto which will make it harder for the Conservatives to ignore it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think it's 3 years eariler for buses. Although the way things are going in Cheshire East the lower patronage routes which use older buses will probably all have been withdrawn by then!

I doubt Maria Eagle is that bothered, the council in Liverpool already pays a bit more to get a preferential number of 156's on local services. I'm not moaning. (Well..... I normally am but you know).

 

[samuelmorris]

I can't say for a minute that this really tells me 'what it's like' to live with a disability for long periods, but I do periodically have to make rail journeys with heavy and bulky luggage to carry. Escalators are fine, but steps not so much. The gap between the platform and train on things like Mk 3s and Mk 4s at most stations is pretty dreadful if I'm honest.

 

[jon0844]

That's why improvements in accessibility are a good thing for everyone, and that also includes people who are perfectly fit today but might not be tomorrow.

That's why I've always been for improvements and have often had to argue with people about why we're wasting the money, when people can't see the bigger picture.

 

[Chapeltom]

I doubt Maria Eagle is that bothered, the council in Liverpool already pays a bit more to get a preferential number of 156's on local services. I'm not moaning. (Well..... I normally am but you know).

I'm not moaning either, usually a 50% chance of a 156 between Oxford Road and Lime Street (I get use at Mossley Hill for University). Be nice if WSA and MSH got live departure boards though, surprises me MSH is used by 6 times more people than West Allerton! Interestingly enough the :16 stopper off Oxford Road will use Platform 4 at WSA/MSH after the next timetable change.


I for one prefer 142s over 150s any day of the week. Heading down the Hope Valley Line on a sunny day through the Vale of Edale, all those windows to look out of, don't feel boxed in at all, can't get the same experience on other classes!

 

[Jonny]

Besides, I've seen wheelchair users on Pacers before... it can be done with minimal adaptation. I suspect it is a minor/technical issue that stops it being deemed to be compliant.

 

[TEW]

And although probably not diagrammed, do Pacers ever still appear on Cardiff to Paignton or Plymouth services ?

No not any more. I'm not sure enough crew sign them now to make it practical, think it's mainly just the 2 Exeter depots which sign 143s now. All the moves to from St Phillips Marsh are ECS moves or tagged on the back of late night services.