Class 142 v Class 156

[Paul Duck]

Does anybody know how many seats are on a Class 142 and how many are on a standard class 156?
Asking to work out how many extra seats people of Teesside will actually get when they scrap the pacers.
Lots of people left behind again today on the Whitby branch and sardine cans are in operation between Middlesbrough-Hartlepool-Newcastle today.

 

[northwichcat]

There's two different seating configurations for the 156s and three different ones for the 142s. The 142s have between 102 and 121 seats, the ex-ATN ones being the ones with the least seats. The 156s have around 145 but bear in mind the number may be reduced slightly when accessibility improvements are made.

Also note the North East is getting some refurbished 2 car 158s (which have around 10 seats less than a 156) and I don't think it's guaranteed that the current Pacer routes will be getting 156s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does anybody know how many seats are on a Class 142 and how many are on a standard class 156?
Asking to work out how many extra seats people of Teesside will actually get when they scrap the pacers.
Lots of people left behind again today on the Whitby branch and sardine cans are in operation between Middlesbrough-Hartlepool-Newcastle today.

I think the 156s are losing a few seats as they go in for DDA mods. As for 142s it depends which interior they have: Merseytravel and bus seated units have on paper significantly more seats than those refurbished by Northern Spirit in the late 1990s - but in real terms there's less of a difference as 3+2 is usually treated as 2+1 by passengers. The big difference will be the quality of units more than number of seats. Also I don't think it's been decided what units will operate non-Connect services in the North East, though 156s is probably a good bet, as I have a feeling that 150s have clearance issues on the Durham Coast.

 

[Paul Duck]

Cheers. We are lead to believe we are getting 156's because units with middle doors (150's) cant operate up the coast due to Hartlepools curved platform. Hopefully if Northern can get the Northern Connect to work via Stillington Branch we will see the class 158's. They have to complete a feasibility study by June 2017 regarding the Northern Connect services from Middlesbrough-Stockton-Newcastle-Carlisle.

 

[yorksrob]

Does anybody know how many seats are on a Class 142 and how many are on a standard class 156?
Asking to work out how many extra seats people of Teesside will actually get when they scrap the pacers.
Lots of people left behind again today on the Whitby branch and sardine cans are in operation between Middlesbrough-Hartlepool-Newcastle today.

On a bank holiday earlier in the year it was standing room only all the way from Middlesborough to Whitby on the 156.

By the journey back, Northern had strengthened this with a 142 which improved the situation greatly. Perhaps Northern ought to adopt this approach for all Saturday and bank holiday Whitby services.

 

[northwichcat]

but in real terms there's less of a difference as 3+2 is usually treated as 2+1 by passengers.

Not the case on the Mid-Cheshire line. If we treated it as 2+1 then people would be unable to board off-peak services, never mind peak services.

Yesterday I experienced my most overcrowded Pacer journey ever (around 75 standing in each carriage plus all seats occupied.) One of the benches of 3 had 2 adults and 3 children on it. The conductor repeatedly apologised over the PA for how overcrowded the train was and informed us he had told control the service needs more carriages - I wonder if that's a new Northern policy to try and reduce the number of complaints they receive about overcrowding?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Cheers. We are lead to believe we are getting 156's because units with middle doors (150's) cant operate up the coast due to Hartlepools curved platform.

That might be an old wives tale as 1st gen DMUs with middle doors have stopped there in the past.

 

[bramling]

On a bank holiday earlier in the year it was standing room only all the way from Middlesborough to Whitby on the 156.

By the journey back, Northern had strengthened this with a 142 which improved the situation greatly. Perhaps Northern ought to adopt this approach for all Saturday and bank holiday Whitby services.

Proves the point that a Pacer is better than no train at all.

We really don't want to end up in the position of still being short of stock after all the changes at Northern. Withdrawal of Pacers should only go ahead once there are no further suitable services which could be lengthened.

 

[yorksrob]

Proves the point that a Pacer is better than no train at all.

We really don't want to end up in the position of still being short of stock after all the changes at Northern. Withdrawal of Pacers should only go ahead once there are no further suitable services which could be lengthened.

Yes, I would agree with this sentiment. Appropriate strengthening of services should be achieved before we start observing arbitrary deadlines.

As far sd I'm concerned, if they can find an extra pacer on the off chance, they should be able to source one on a regular basis.

 

[northwichcat]

Proves the point that a Pacer is better than no train at all.

Unless they start to prove very unreliable. If Pacer+Sprinter formations started failing a lot then it would likely result in many services cancelled altogether, as the Sprinter would have to rescue the failed Pacer so there would be no train instead of a Sprinter.

 

[yorksrob]

Unless they start to prove very unreliable. If Pacer+Sprinter formations started failing a lot then it would likely result in many services cancelled altogether, as the Sprinter would have to rescue the failed Pacer so there would be no train instead of a Sprinter.

I suspect that their comparatively lo-tec design helps to mitigate against this.

 

[northwichcat]

I suspect that their comparatively lo-tec design helps to mitigate against this.

I'm not sure. I've never been on a pair of Sprinters where there's been problems with doors on one unit not releasing but when it's a pair of Pacers or a Pacer + Sprinter formation it does seem to happen occasionally.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure. I've never been on a pair of Sprinters where there's been problems with doors on one unit not releasing but when it's a pair of Pacers or a Pacer + Sprinter formation it does seem to happen occasionally.

I can't say as I've noticed pacers being any more likely to break down than sprinters. That said, if reliability did fall off a cliff, they'd have to reconsider as you say.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't say as I've noticed pacers being any more likely to break down than sprinters. That said, if reliability did fall off a cliff, they'd have to reconsider as you say.

I don't want to talk about one class of train breaking down more than another, as soon after I said I've never been a 150 which has broken down, I finished up being on one which broke down in the middle of nowhere late at night!

However, door problems (usually causing delays rather than cancellations) seem to be a lot more common on Pacers operating in multiple than Sprinters operating in multiple at present.

 

[Bevan Price]

Cheers. We are lead to believe we are getting 156's because units with middle doors (150's) cant operate up the coast due to Hartlepools curved platform. Hopefully if Northern can get the Northern Connect to work via Stillington Branch we will see the class 158's. They have to complete a feasibility study by June 2017 regarding the Northern Connect services from Middlesbrough-Stockton-Newcastle-Carlisle.

Seems strange. Earlestown has platforms that seem at least as curved as those at Hartlepool - but they use Class 150 there. Is there some other reason for not using 150s in the North East ?

 

[Anvil1984]

Only current issue is that class 150s have a specific prohibition on the Durham Coast in the Sunderland area (East Boldon to Monkwearmouth if I remember right). There was a class 950 down the coast recently but that was restricted to 40mph through that stretch according to sectional appendix anyway

 

[bramling]

Unless they start to prove very unreliable. If Pacer+Sprinter formations started failing a lot then it would likely result in many services cancelled altogether, as the Sprinter would have to rescue the failed Pacer so there would be no train instead of a Sprinter.

Yes in my view that's a fair point.

However whilst Pacer reliability is not wonderful, certainly at present I don't believe it's anywhere near the level where they should be withdrawn on reliability grounds.

For me, the point is that we are where we are. A 156 or 158 is undoubtedly better than any Pacer class, but there are finite numbers of each. The simple reality is people don't like overcrowding. Personally I hate it, and I'd much prefer 2x142 over 1x156 if it means I will have a more spacious journey. The exception being the Merseyrail interior class 142s, however that's more to do with the specific type of seat than the train itself.

 

[Parallel]

Yes in my view that's a fair point.

However whilst Pacer reliability is not wonderful, certainly at present I don't believe it's anywhere near the level where they should be withdrawn on reliability grounds.

Interestingly and rather surprisingly, a couple of years ago I read a tweet by ATW that said their pacers had a high reliability record compared to the rest of their fleet! There again, they usually are only paired up with other pacers, and are based at Canton depot which they never stray too far from. I guess these days the furthest they go is Pembroke Dock occasionally, though I did read that one last year made it all the way to Llandrindod(?)

 

[Mordac]

Interestingly and rather surprisingly, a couple of years ago I read a tweet by ATW that said their pacers had a high reliability record compared to the rest of their fleet! There again, they usually are only paired up with other pacers, and are based at Canton depot which they never stray too far from. I guess these days the furthest they go is Pembroke Dock occasionally, though I did read that one last year made it all the way to Llandrindod(?)

So the Gloucester and Cheltenham trains aren't run by them? I ask because I just looked at them on RTT the other day and they were timed for Pacers, but I did think it strange they'd use them on such a long service. Is that just to allow one to sub in if needed?

 

[PHILIPE]

So the Gloucester and Cheltenham trains aren't run by them? I ask because I just looked at them on RTT the other day and they were timed for Pacers, but I did think it strange they'd use them on such a long service. Is that just to allow one to sub in if needed?

They may be timed for Pacers but it doesn.t mean they are diagrammed for Pacers. It means they are timed to run at 75mph max whatever class. However there is a daily diagram for a Pacer working through from Maesteg and Cheltenham back and forth all day.

 

[A0]

On a bank holiday earlier in the year it was standing room only all the way from Middlesborough to Whitby on the 156.

By the journey back, Northern had strengthened this with a 142 which improved the situation greatly. Perhaps Northern ought to adopt this approach for all Saturday and bank holiday Whitby services.

I'm guessing there's a staff overhead though - because it's not possible to 'walk though' between the units and the guard needs to sell / check tickets?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm guessing there's a staff overhead though - because it's not possible to 'walk though' between the units and the guard needs to sell / check tickets?

In theory the guard could switch between units at each station but I believe current regulations insist the guard must remain in the rear unit if not gangwayed. I have seen several West Yorkshire services with 2 members of staff besides the driver, but one of these will just be doing tickets and may be an RPI rather than a qualified guard. In which case they won't be safety trained so would not be able to be the only available staff member in any section of the train.

 

[PHILIPE]

They may be timed for Pacers but it doesn.t mean they are diagrammed for Pacers. It means they are timed to run at 75mph max whatever class. However there is a daily diagram for a Pacer working through from Maesteg and Cheltenham back and forth all day.

After mentioning this, is a pair of Dogboxes today.

 

[Footplate1]

The 156 is better than a pacer but still an out of date train and I've driven many over the years ( I used to sign most of the U.K.).

 

[yorksrob]

I'm guessing there's a staff overhead though - because it's not possible to 'walk though' between the units and the guard needs to sell / check tickets?

Given the large number of stops, would it be possible for the guard to hop from one unit to the other ?

 

[Footplate1]

Given the large number of stops, would it be possible for the guard to hop from one unit to the other ?

Bring back the 'good old BR days'

 

[yorksrob]

Bring back the 'good old BR days'

I remember this method being employed for ticket checks on EPB's in the early 90's !

 

[ExRes]

The 156 is better than a pacer but still an out of date train and I've driven many over the years ( I used to sign most of the U.K.).

Driving what and with whom can one ask?

 

[6Gman]

As far sd I'm concerned, if they can find an extra pacer on the off chance, they should be able to source one on a regular basis.

Not necessarily. It might have been that a maintenance unit was available that day. Can't do that on a regular basis.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

 

[yorksrob]

Not necessarily. It might have been that a maintenance unit was available that day. Can't do that on a regular basis.

Fair point.

On that occasion, I'd noticed the 142 sitting in the siding to the East of Middlesbrough that morning.

Next time I go out that way I'll have a look to see if there are any 142's sitting idle !

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Driving what and with whom can one ask?

Shopping trolley when his mother takes him shopping for new school clothes.