Class 142 refurbishment?

[sheff'd victoria]

The class 142 " Cattle Truck " refurbisment issue is now been take up on the world of twitter, a number of comments are how to get more seats into the stock and have ample leg room as well ?

To be fair I do miss the bench seats of the cattle trucks as you knew you were going to be sitting on a razor blade but at least you had some leg room

 

[edwin_m]

The banner ad on this thread as I write this is a Dreamliner update from Boeing. Does the ad selection matching know something I don't?

The luggage rack does indeed seem to be an odd place for a heating pipe - didn't anyone tell the designers that hot air rises? Maybe some heaters at floor level would do a bit to dry out the damp that so many Pacers smell of.

I like the thought of new blinds being "rolled out" though.

 

[sprinterguy]

Maybe some heaters at floor level would do a bit to dry out the damp that so many Pacers smell of.

Haven't all the Pacers had floor level heaters for quite some time now, installed specifically because of the ineffectiveness of the roof mounted heating pod on the 142s? The former North East/Northern Spirit units certainly have had floor level heaters for many years now.

 

[jon0844]

The banner ad on this thread as I write this is a Dreamliner update from Boeing. Does the ad selection matching know something I don't?

Either the 142s are being refreshed to look like the interior of Boeing's new fleet, or Boeing have based their new fleet on the 142s.

As for having heating high up, I've seen this in some buildings and always thought it was rather odd - but I guess that while heat rises, if you have air circulating then I suppose it is still possible to heat the environment this way - perhaps without cooking ankles and heating up trousers (as anyone sitting by the window of a 365 will know only too well can really be uncomfortable!).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Either the 142s are being refreshed to look like the interior of Boeing's new fleet, or Boeing have based their new fleet on the 142s.

I now eagerly await a artistic offering from one of our many creative thinkers on the forum to give a visualisation the the thread matter above shown in heavy-face....

 

[Greybeard33]

Haven't all the Pacers had floor level heaters for quite some time now, installed specifically because of the ineffectiveness of the roof mounted heating pod on the 142s? The former North East/Northern Spirit units certainly have had floor level heaters for many years now.

I was on 142005 today and could not see any floor level heater (it still has the original seats). The floor to ceiling hot water pipes that are disguised as grab poles can serve as handwarmers for standing passengers! In my experience draughts from leaky door seals are the main problem in cold weather.

 

[jizzer]

If you saw 2 x 142s on a Stoke-Manchester service opposed to the peak time extra Macclesfield-Manchester service then Northern will be in trouble as for 2 reasons:
1. They aren't allowed to use 75mph units south of Macclesfield and if they did they would delay Virgin or/and CrossCountry services. If they want to use 75mph units they would have to re-time the services to leave the origin station earlier like they did with a couple of Crewe/Alderley Edge services following the 323 Alderley Edge derailment and the Land Rover collision with another 323 at Congleton but I don't know if that would actually work with Stoke services.
2. 142s aren't cleared south of Macclesfield and apparently there is a clearance issue with 142s calling at stations between Macclesfield and Stoke and it's not just a case of clearance hasn't been applied for.

142's are permitted up to stoke on trent ( if the RA hasn't changed in the last few years) but not beyond. Northern don't send them there because they are too slow' and would cause delay to all the class 1 trains down that route.

 

[142056]

I now eagerly await a artistic offering from one of our many creative thinkers on the forum to give a visualisation the the thread matter above shown in heavy-face....

Don't let Ryanair know about this, they'll have bus-style seating in their aeroplanes because it's lighter and you cram more people in!

 

[tom1649]

Haven't all the Pacers had floor level heaters for quite some time now, installed specifically because of the ineffectiveness of the roof mounted heating pod on the 142s? The former North East/Northern Spirit units certainly have had floor level heaters for many years now.

No floor level heaters on the bus-bench seated units. I'm not sure about the Merseytravel ones.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Apologies for the slight diversion off-topic, but I was on a 144 on Monday night and noticed a black box mounted in the vestibule of the DMS, mounted above the door into the cab. I'd not noticed this before and would have taken a photo but battery was dead. Anyone got any idea what it was?

 

[starrymarkb]

Don't let Ryanair know about this, they'll have bus-style seating in their aeroplanes because it's lighter and you cram more people in!

They already could potentially fit another row in by tightening pitches with the existing seats. Not that they could use them as their 737s are already at the maximum capacity for evacuation. Any more passengers would need an additional pair of doors. (That's the reason their pitch is more generous then some higher end airlines who have a 2 class config)

 

[northwichcat]

142's are permitted up to stoke on trent ( if the RA hasn't changed in the last few years) but not beyond. Northern don't send them there because they are too slow' and would cause delay to all the class 1 trains down that route.

So are you saying that a 142 could now call at all stations on the Stoke route ignoring the speed problem or just that they can run ECS to Stoke? I was told previously they are banned from calling at one or more of the stations between Congleton and Stoke because it wouldn't be safe for passengers to transfer between the Pacer and the platform. I think it was something to do with the platforms being too high.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't let Ryanair know about this, they'll have bus-style seating in their aeroplanes because it's lighter and you cram more people in!

While Ryanair have threatened perch seats and chargeable toilets they haven't actually got anywhere with those proposals.

Jet2 have refurbished their Boeings with lightweight seats while Ryanair use standard Boeing seating but with imitation leather covers opposed to real leather covers.

 

[starrymarkb]

While Ryanair have threatened perch seats and chargeable toilets they haven't actually got anywhere with those proposals.

Jet2 have refurbished their Boeings with lightweight seats while Ryanair use standard Boeing seating but with imitation leather covers opposed to real leather covers.

As I said, they can't get any more passengers in without additional emergency exits. 189 is the maximum amount of passengers permitted in a B737-800 with 8 exits (as used by Ryanair). They can make all the noise they like about standing passengers, but until they can persuade Boeing to design, make and certify a 738 with additional exits (ie the layout of a 739 but without the extra length) they can't carry a single additional passenger.

As an example most Airbus A319s have a single pair of overwing exits rated for up to 124 passengers - Easyjet's A319s have 2 pairs of exits allowing a maximum of 156 passengers (they use a mid section from a longer A320 which fits in place of the standard section).

Some former Britannia 767s also have additional exits because of the high densities (IIRC a short haul BY767 holds more then a BA747!)

 

[northwichcat]

As an example most Airbus A319s have a single pair of overwing exits rated for up to 124 passengers - Easyjet's A319s have 2 pairs of exits allowing a maximum of 156 passengers (they use a mid section from a longer A320 which fits in place of the standard section).

Having been on both an Easyjet A319 and an A320 in the past week and being sat in the row just behind the emergency exits in both cases it did seem that the A320 has better seat to window alignment than the A319.

I think 156 seats also requires them to have 4 members of cabin crew opposed to 3. The Boeing 737-300s with slightly less than 150 seats always seemed to operate with 3 members of cabin crew under EasyJet in the past and under Jet2 at present.

 

[starrymarkb]

It does indeed, 1 cabin crew member is required for every 50 passenger seats. Hence they have switched to the A320 for new deliveries (Difference in fuel burn is marginal, no extra crew needed, 24 extra seats)

Also in a similar vein on Exits, the reason the 737-800 can carry more then the A320 is because the overwing exits on the 737 are spring loaded* hatches while the A320 uses the older plug style that has to be manually opened inwards and then thrown clear. In that extra second or two an extra 9 people could escape

Apologies for the O/T tangent!

*They are very strongly sprung, if you don't let go of the release handle quick enough you will be yanked out as it opens!

 

[Surreyman]

As I said, they can't get any more passengers in without additional emergency exits. 189 is the maximum amount of passengers permitted in a B737-800 with 8 exits (as used by Ryanair). They can make all the noise they like about standing passengers, but until they can persuade Boeing to design, make and certify a 738 with additional exits (ie the layout of a 739 but without the extra length) they can't carry a single additional passenger.

Starrymarkb
Your reply is factually 100% accurate, however it needs to be borne in mind that Mr O' Leary is a master of the cheap outrageous statement.
I have followed Ryanair developments since the mid 1990s. It costs him nothing to make over the top remarks to journalists about charging for toilets and carrying standing passengers, these then become reported as serious news.
I am sure he and his board had a good giggle when they heard the radio/Tv reports/newspaper articles - 'no such thing as bad publicity etc' (well plane crashes aside).

 

[jon0844]

It's lucky that Ryanair hasn't had any serious accidents because it seemed to me that the way the crew acted sometimes didn't inspire me with confidence that they'd be very helpful during an emergency!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I find it stretching the incredulity of forum members in respect of how Class 142 refurbishments (original reason for this thread) can even remotely draw a comparison to the airline industry.

Have matters strayed somewhat off thread ?

 

[MCW]

there's nothing wrong with 142's as they are why the hell would we need them refurbishing again?

 

[ainsworth74]

there's nothing wrong with 142's as they are why the hell would we need them refurbishing again?

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you've never travelled on either the Merseytravel refurbished units or those units which retain their original bus seating...

 

[jon0844]

I find it stretching the incredulity of forum members in respect of how Class 142 refurbishments (original reason for this thread) can even remotely draw a comparison to the airline industry.

Have matters strayed somewhat off thread ?

It was because there was a Boeing advert showing against this thread, hence the light-hearted connection.

But conversations always go off on tangents. If they didn't, most threads would die in no time - and if a thread goes too far off topic, mods can and often do break them up into separate threads.

 

[northwichcat]

there's nothing wrong with 142's as they are why the hell would we need them refurbishing again?

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you've never travelled on either the Merseytravel refurbished units or those units which retain their original bus seating...

i.e. the majority of them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I find it stretching the incredulity of forum members in respect of how Class 142 refurbishments (original reason for this thread) can even remotely draw a comparison to the airline industry.

Have matters strayed somewhat off thread ?

Some points made with regards to Boeings and Airbuses are relevant to Pacers though:
1. The Jet2 Boeings have been re-fitted by lighter seats to save money by incurring less fuel costs. The Pacers were originally fitted with cheap light bus seats.
2. The Easyjet A319s have been fitted with additional emergency exits to allow for a higher loading than they were originally designed for. The Pacers are carrying higher loads than they were designed for and still only have 3 sets of doors each side of the train (except for the 3 car 144s.)

 

[jizzer]

So are you saying that a 142 could now call at all stations on the Stoke route ignoring the speed problem or just that they can run ECS to Stoke? I was told previously they are banned from calling at one or more of the stations between Congleton and Stoke because it wouldn't be safe for passengers to transfer between the Pacer and the platform. I think it was something to do with the platforms being too high.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


While Ryanair have threatened perch seats and chargeable toilets they haven't actually got anywhere with those proposals.

Jet2 have refurbished their Boeings with lightweight seats while Ryanair use standard Boeing seating but with imitation leather covers opposed to real leather covers.

142's are prohibited between Glebe street junc and stoke on trent, so they are permitted up to stoke on trent but not beyond.

 

[WatcherZero]

An interesting article in May's Modern Rail about possibly extending the life of the Pacers and illuminating about the work they have had done since being built (also suggests ideal replacement would be continental style units with a non-underfloor diesel powerpack that could be mid life refitted to electric), mind you the author of the article is the Fleet Manager at Porterbrook responsible for finding a home for them and even he admits their likely to be phased out in favour of refurbed Sprinters.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

An interesting article in May's Modern Rail about possibly extending the life of the Pacers and illuminating about the work they have had done since being built (also suggests ideal replacement would be continental style units with a non-underfloor diesel powerpack that could be mid life refitted to electric), mind you the author of the article is the Fleet Manager at Porterbrook responsible for finding a home for them and even he admits their likely to be phased out in favour of refurbed Sprinters.

This 2-page article (pp 78 and 79) has the rather dramatic article headline title of.....Will we still have Pacers in 2030 ?

There is a photograph of the after-effects to the Class 87 "Wolf of Badenoch" and a Class 142 Pacer that were involved in the accident at Winsford in June 1999 and three small computer-generated internal images of what a refurbished Pacer may look like.

 

[starrymarkb]

(also suggests ideal replacement would be continental style units with a non-underfloor diesel powerpack that could be mid life refitted to electric)

Stadler GTW's?

 

[tom1649]

There's an article in the latest edition of RAIL magazine stating that all Class 142s are going to be withdrawn by Angel Trains by 2020.

 

[Surreyman]

There's an article in the latest edition of RAIL magazine stating that all Class 142s are going to be withdrawn by Angel Trains by 2020.

Rail Magazine doesn't exactly have a reputation for accurate and reliable reporting!

 

[WatcherZero]

Still at least they write their own articles rather than so much content in MR being infomercials written by sponsors

 

[tom1649]

I quite like RAIL myself although I agree they aren't always accurate or reliable.

The information in the article comes from Angel Trains' Chief Operating Officer Kevin Tribley who says they haven't any plans to carry out DDA work on the trains.

If some are going to be kept after 2020 then they're going to have to start planning soon aren't they?