Class 142 original literature

[HSTEd]

Interesting that they were selling these as an improvement over the 1st generation units, when in fact they are inferior in almost every way.

They'd have been better keeping more of the 1st generation units going until something better could be afforded.

142s have always had toilets I think.

Amongst other things the Mark 1 units were falling apart and were apparently riddled with asbestos.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Amongst other things the Mark 1 units were falling apart and were apparently riddled with asbestos.

Whereas the class 142 Pacers are falling apart and are apparently riddled with non-DDA problems..

 

[tom1649]

Amongst other things the Mark 1 units were falling apart and were apparently riddled with asbestos.

Well some of the 101s kept going until 2003 so they can't have been that bad. At least they were warm in winter with all that asbestos insulation!

 

[O L Leigh]

So much wibble and piffle.

1st gen DMUs were terrible. Those that do not remember the Pacers and Sprinters coming new onto the rails do not remember just how terrible passenger travel was on secondary and regional services prior to their introduction. Wheezy old DMUs and clapped out Goyles and Tractors hauling dirty, threadbare, ageing Mk2 coaches. Poor reliability, slow timings, uncomfortable seating, cold and draughty saloons, dirty and smelly interiors. Simply awful. It almost didn't matter how limited the new rolling stock was, a new, clean, bright train that would easily accelerate up to 75mph rather than clattering along and barely creeping above 60mph was going to be welcomed.

I will admit that the introduction of the Pacers was not always warmly welcomed, even at the time. But the fact that they are now viewed in such a poor light only underlines just how we all felt about the 1st gen DMUs at the time of their withdrawal. It's too easy to look through rose-tinted glasses at what we no longer have, but nostalgia does not inform the discussion. Compared to what went before, the Pacers were an improvement.

Like it or not, there was a desperate need to modernise the network and see off these old trains with something newer. The Pacers may have been a cheap solution, but then BR hadn't got a bottomless pit of money to call upon, and so all options were pursued. It's all too easy to look back now at how things were almost 30 years ago and smirk, but seen in the context of the time the claims in this leaflet are not so strange.

O L Leigh

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Like it or not, there was a desperate need to modernise the network and see off these old trains with something newer. The Pacers may have been a cheap solution, but then BR hadn't got a bottomless pit of money to call upon, and so all options were pursued. It's all too easy to look back now at how things were almost 30 years ago and smirk, but seen in the context of the time the claims in this leaflet are not so strange.

If this be the case, why was the Pacer fleet not introduced onto the diesel-operated services in the South-East to replace the elderly units there that were in need of replacement ? Was it a political decision not to allow the Pacer units to operate in South-East England ?

At the age of 68 and one who remembers the first generation DMU when they were new beasts and being a passenger on a Class 142 Pacer unit on the first day that these units were introduced upon the Oldham Loop Line, I feel that I can speak with some authority upon that particular subject.

 

[TOCDriver]

So much wibble and piffle.O L Leigh

That's your opinion. I,like many others, thoroughly enjoyed the ride on a 1st generation train, and considered them much better vehicles than their successors. I still do, like it or not.

 

[yorksrob]

If this be the case, why was the Pacer fleet not introduced onto the diesel-operated services in the South-East to replace the elderly units there that were in need of replacement ? Was it a political decision not to allow the Pacer units to operate in South-East England ?

At the age of 68 and one who remembers the first generation DMU when they were new beasts and being a passenger on a Class 142 Pacer unit on the first day that these units were introduced upon the Oldham Loop Line, I feel that I can speak with some authority upon that particular subject.

Because the DEMU fleet was vastly superior to the various Northern oddities and good for another ten years. Also, don‘t forget that NSE was busily diminishing the thumper routes through infill electrification, so there wouldn‘t have needed to have been diesel replacements.

On the subject of pacers, you only have to look at the internal state of the144‘s today to see that even a pacer can be a perfectly good train, given decent seating etc. Just a pity that evolution did‘nt happen sooner!

 

[sprinterguy]

On the OP leaflet, I like how in the top-right, there appears to be a guy swimming into and about to flop onto a diving board

It is interesting to see that what became the “Super Sprinter” insignia actually originated that much earlier with the Pacers. With regards to your interpretation of the logo, perhaps even more interesting is that it is still visible today at the University of Birmingham, who seem to have “borrowed” the logo, and Provincial’s blue and white colour scheme to boot, and applied it to their sports hall, which backs onto the Cross-City line, and have adapted it to represent a range of different sports!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Going back some distance in time, did the Port Carlisle Railway have a most novel form of rail traction that had oats and carrots as part of its motive supply ?

It most certainly did. Also, as you may well be aware already, many station goods yards once had similar carrot and oats powered yard shunters. I seem to remember reading that some yards, probably at more rural locations, continued to employ the old ‘oss in this role until they day they closed in the fifties.

 

[northwichcat]

Because the DEMU fleet was vastly superior to the various Northern oddities and good for another ten years. Also, don‘t forget that NSE was busily diminishing the thumper routes through infill electrification, so there wouldn‘t have needed to have been diesel replacements.

Apparently Regional Railways ordered too many DMUs in the 1980s but the over order resulted in some 158s being upgraded to 159s and sent to Network South East with the Regional Railways 141s, 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s, 155s and 156s all remaining with Regional Railways (along with the remaining 1st gen DMUs and loco hauled sets.)

 

[Waldgrun]

I love the line "you feel as thought you are still sitting at home", funny I don't remember having 3 + 2 bus bench type seating in our house back then!

 

[northwichcat]

I love the line "you feel as thought you are still sitting at home", funny I don't remember having 3 + 2 bus bench type seating in our house back then!

I'm sure a lot of people had sofas that would seat 3 people but you wouldn't need other people to get up to let you out.

 

[sprinterguy]

I love the line "you feel as thought you are still sitting at home", funny I don't remember having 3 + 2 bus bench type seating in our house back then!

That’s my favourite line, too. I can honestly say that, when viewing houses and flats before a prospective move, I have never gone into a property and said “Wow, this place looks and feels just like a Pacer! I simply must have it!”

Incidentally, after working in a bus depot for a while, I do know at least one person who has bus bench seating in their home. They took at least one away with them when we were withdrawing our old Metrobuses!

 

[yorksrob]

Apparently Regional Railways ordered too many DMUs in the 1980s but the over order resulted in some 158s being upgraded to 159s and sent to Network South East with the Regional Railways 141s, 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s, 155s and 156s all remaining with Regional Railways (along with the remaining 1st gen DMUs and loco hauled sets.)

Thumpers did occasionally fill in on Waterloo - Salisbury duties in times of shortage, but the 159's generally replaced loco hauled when introduced

 

[DarloRich]

So much wibble and piffle.

1st gen DMUs were terrible. Those that do not remember the Pacers and Sprinters coming new onto the rails do not remember just how terrible passenger travel was on secondary and regional services prior to their introduction. Wheezy old DMUs and clapped out Goyles and Tractors hauling dirty, threadbare, ageing Mk2 coaches. Poor reliability, slow timings, uncomfortable seating, cold and draughty saloons, dirty and smelly interiors. Simply awful. It almost didn't matter how limited the new rolling stock was, a new, clean, bright train that would easily accelerate up to 75mph rather than clattering along and barely creeping above 60mph was going to be welcomed.

I will admit that the introduction of the Pacers was not always warmly welcomed, even at the time. But the fact that they are now viewed in such a poor light only underlines just how we all felt about the 1st gen DMUs at the time of their withdrawal. It's too easy to look through rose-tinted glasses at what we no longer have, but nostalgia does not inform the discussion. Compared to what went before, the Pacers were an improvement.

Like it or not, there was a desperate need to modernise the network and see off these old trains with something newer. The Pacers may have been a cheap solution, but then BR hadn't got a bottomless pit of money to call upon, and so all options were pursued. It's all too easy to look back now at how things were almost 30 years ago and smirk, but seen in the context of the time the claims in this leaflet are not so strange.

O L Leigh

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this

BR was skint and did the best it could with the £3.50 it found down the back of the sofa. Was it perfect? No. Did it keep the railway & passengers moving and possibly certain lines open? Yes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting that they were selling these as an improvement over the 1st generation units, when in fact they are inferior in almost every way.

They'd have been better keeping more of the 1st generation units going until something better could be afforded.

Inferior in almost everyway except the important ones of being cheaper to run and maintain, with a higher top speed and being quicker of the mark that the old DMU’s

 

[O L Leigh]

If this be the case, why was the Pacer fleet not introduced onto the diesel-operated services in the South-East to replace the elderly units there that were in need of replacement ? Was it a political decision not to allow the Pacer units to operate in South-East England ?

Because Network SouthEast was a different business unit within BR. With the exception of the suburban services out of Paddington, it was not a large user of DMUs in the same way that the Provincial Services sector was. There was never any intention to introduce Pacers onto NSE services because the specification had not come from that business unit.

That's your opinion. I, like many others, thoroughly enjoyed the ride on a 1st generation train, and considered them much better vehicles than their successors. I still do, like it or not.

...as is your response.

Yes I quite like rattling along in a 1st gen DMU too, bouncing up and down on the old seats when I'm on my holidays and want a jolly on an old train. But to use one every day when I'm relying on it to get me to and from work...? Remember, the railways are run for the benefit of the travelling public and not enthusiasts. New trains drive up passenger numbers whatever you like to think. Given the choice between something faster, more reliable and more modern and a clapped out old DMU, what would most people prefer?

What I am trying to do is to inject a little historical perspective into the discussion. As I said, it's easy to look back 30 years and smirk, but this promotional leaflet is an historical document and needs to be viewed in it's proper context. The shortcomings of the Pacer family are not new and were identified at the time of their introduction. However, there was optimism about the introduction of new trains, and this leaflet reflects this. Yes it is a promotional leaflet which means that they talk up the features of the train and give it a positive spin, but that is to be expected.

O L Leigh

 

[northwichcat]

There was never any intention to introduce Pacers onto NSE services because the specification had not come from that business unit.

Remember some routes got Pacers that weren't expected to get Pacers due to problems when they were introduced in Cornwall.

Also some of the routes which get Pacers in 2013 were not routes Pacers were originally used on. It's a case of 2 x 142s being more capacity than a 2 car Sprinter so the service got 'upgraded' to a Pacer service, while in other parts of the country Sprinters have been upgraded to Turbostars.

 

[O L Leigh]

Remember some routes got Pacers that weren't expected to get Pacers due to problems when they were introduced in Cornwall.

But we're still talking about movement within the former Provincial Services sector. Cl142 "Skippers" from Laira to Heaton and Newton Heath and the Cl143s going from Heaton to Cardiff Canton. I'm sure Laira must have got a few additional Cl150s to compensate which would have presumably come from Newton Heath and Canton. None of Laira's former allocation went anywhere near NSE.

O L Leigh

 

[TOCDriver]

Because Network SouthEast was a different business unit within BR. With the exception of the suburban services out of Paddington, it was not a large user of DMUs in the same way that the Provincial Services sector was. There was never any intention to introduce Pacers onto NSE services because the specification had not come from that business unit.



...as is your response.

Yes I quite like rattling along in a 1st gen DMU too, bouncing up and down on the old seats when I'm on my holidays and want a jolly on an old train. But to use one every day when I'm relying on it to get me to and from work...? Remember, the railways are run for the benefit of the travelling public and not enthusiasts. New trains drive up passenger numbers whatever you like to think. Given the choice between something faster, more reliable and more modern and a clapped out old DMU, what would most people prefer?

What I am trying to do is to inject a little historical perspective into the discussion. As I said, it's easy to look back 30 years and smirk, but this promotional leaflet is an historical document and needs to be viewed in it's proper context. The shortcomings of the Pacer family are not new and were identified at the time of their introduction. However, there was optimism about the introduction of new trains, and this leaflet reflects this. Yes it is a promotional leaflet which means that they talk up the features of the train and give it a positive spin, but that is to be expected.

O L Leigh

they were rubbish from day 1. Their transmissions had to be changed after 18 months because they kept breaking!. Go figure

 

[HSTEd]

And yet they were still cheaper to run.
They could also keep relatively close to sprinter timings, which was a major issue at the time. Uniform performance increases pathing efficiency, this in turn allows savings from track rationalisation.

 

[asylumxl]

I quite like Pacers. I have had many a good journey chugging along the banks of South Devon in summer, with a cool breeze blowing through the windows and the warmth of the sun beating down upon me. Bliss.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Could the more-mechanically minded amongst us explain what caused a cardan shaft to decide to make a break for freedom from its hosting Pacer ?

 

[northwichcat]

Could the more-mechanically minded amongst us explain what caused a cardan shaft to decide to make a break for freedom from its hosting Pacer ?

I'm sure the relevant RAIB report explains that if someone digs it out. I seem to recall it said something about low speeds while the train is accelerating being higher risk than running at 60mph to 75mph, despite the fact Northern temporarily restricted some Pacers to 60mph as a safety precaution.

 

[ainsworth74]

The report in question and a useful passage:

The immediate cause of the detachment was the complete fracture of a final drive
input shaft. The input shaft fractured because a seized input bearing generated a
large amount of frictional heat between the shaft and bearing. The input shaft was
locally heated to a temperature at which its strength was reduced so that it could no
longer carry its normal loading.

The RAIB established that the seizure of the bearing was due to the setup of the
bearings during overhaul which resulted in a lack of end float in the bearings when in
operation. The final drive failure was not detected by the checks which were in place
to identify the onset of such failures. The detached cardan shaft was not retained by
its safety loops.

 

[northwichcat]

This was the bit I was thinking of that referred to the low speeds:

Additional observations:
159c. at low speeds, the cardan shaft operates with large deflection angles and the difference in deflection angles exceeds the manufacturer’s recommended limit

 

[yorksrob]

Yes I quite like rattling along in a 1st gen DMU too, bouncing up and down on the old seats when I'm on my holidays and want a jolly on an old train. But to use one every day when I'm relying on it to get me to and from work...? Remember, the railways are run for the benefit of the travelling public and not enthusiasts. New trains drive up passenger numbers whatever you like to think. Given the choice between something faster, more reliable and more modern and a clapped out old DMU, what would most people prefer?

What I am trying to do is to inject a little historical perspective into the discussion. As I said, it's easy to look back 30 years and smirk, but this promotional leaflet is an historical document and needs to be viewed in it's proper context. The shortcomings of the Pacer family are not new and were identified at the time of their introduction. However, there was optimism about the introduction of new trains, and this leaflet reflects this. Yes it is a promotional leaflet which means that they talk up the features of the train and give it a positive spin, but that is to be expected.

O L Leigh

Of the few first generation units I‘ve been on, some, like the metro-cammels seem fairly similar to a pacer with their bus seats, so given other factors, a pacer probably would have been a step up.

I have, however, also sampled a 127, and with the exception of toilet access issues, the interior is vastly preferable to the bus seat pacers I have to travel on. Of course, as Old Timer once mentioned, the 127‘s ended up having to be topped up with water between Bedford and St Pancreas, so reliability was obviously pants, but in terms of passenger accommodation, I‘d take them over a 142 for my commute any day.

 

[O L Leigh]

they were rubbish from day 1. Their transmissions had to be changed after 18 months because they kept breaking!. Go figure

Because, of course, Pacers are the only units to have ever suffered teething troubles or required in-service any modification. I think I'd rather be on a DMU with an exploding gearbox than one that cannot be relied upon to operate track circuits or has difficulty stopping in low adhesion conditions like the Cl158s. But then, they aren't Pacers and so that's alright. Some modifications were to improve reliability where others were on the cards anyway to give increased parts and equipment commonality and interoperability with the expanding fleet of Sprinters and their derivatives.

Besides, you need to check some of your facts. The first unit to have it's transmission changed was 142050 which was converted in 1988, three years after it was constructed. It was sent to Heaton for trials during summer of that year, after which it was decided to convert the rest of the fleet. That is 3 years, not 18 months.

Could the more-mechanically minded amongst us explain what caused a cardan shaft to decide to make a break for freedom from its hosting Pacer ?

On balance it would appear that the cause was poor maintenance and incorrect set-up of various bearings within the drivetrain leading to the failure of the cardan shaft rather than any shortcoming in the design itself. Speed restrictions applied to the fleet appear to have been precautionary while the fleet was checked to ensure that the drivetrain was set correctly in order to avoid any similar failures.

Similar errors appear to have been contributory to other major final drive failures, including the snapped axle on the Meridian that derailed near Market Harborough in February 2010.

O L Leigh

 

[TOCDriver]

Besides, you need to check some of your facts. The first unit to have it's transmission changed was 142050 which was converted in 1988, three years after it was constructed. It was sent to Heaton for trials during summer of that year, after which it was decided to convert the rest of the fleet. That is 3 years, not 18 months.

For gods sake, it was a general comment for crying out loud! Not a thesis for my A level history project. Do I really need to go and research to the nth degree for every post I make on here? No wonder people find these forums unfriendly and silly sometimes. I appalud you for knowing your stuff off the top of your head, you're obvioulsy an enthusiast, but that did come across as being a little arrogant and condescending

 

[O L Leigh]

For gods sake, it was a general comment for crying out loud! Not a thesis for my A level history project. Do I really need to go and research to the nth degree for every post I make on here?

You were presenting a factual statement to underline a point. Is it really so much to ask that factual information is at least accurate?

I appalud you for knowing your stuff off the top of your head, you're obvioulsy an enthusiast, but that did come across as being a little arrogant and condescending

No, not really. I just read the Cl142 page on Wikipedia and the information was there which just happened to tally with my own memory. It was the work of but a moment. Hardly research to the 'n'th degree.

As for condescension and arrogance, well I think that's a topic best pursued by PM rather than on-list. If you really feel so strongly about my tone I shall be happy to hear from you, otherwise please feel free to report any posts that you don't like to the mods. Out of deference I shall not comment on my own opinions of your own tone at this time except to say that I have no personal issues with anyone here, yourself included. I do not post maliciously.

O L Leigh

 

[TOCDriver]

You were presenting a factual statement to underline a point. Is it really so much to ask that factual information is at least accurate?



No, not really. I just read the Cl142 page on Wikipedia and the information was there which just happened to tally with my own memory. It was the work of but a moment. Hardly research to the 'n'th degree.

As for condescension and arrogance, well I think that's a topic best pursued by PM rather than on-list. If you really feel so strongly about my tone I shall be happy to hear from you, otherwise please feel free to report any posts that you don't like to the mods. Out of deference I shall not comment on my own opinions of your own tone at this time except to say that I have no personal issues with anyone here, yourself included. I do not post maliciously.

O L Leigh

I think being 18 months out over a period of nearly 30 years isn't too bad, especially when it was off the top of me head and that I'm only 33 myself. Still, whatever tickles your boat, sir.l I think we'll leave it at that. Some people take these forums more seriously than others and that's fair do's. Personally, I treat them as a bit of personal entertainment and lighthearted banter. You obviously don't. Cheers

 

[WestCountry]

I think I'd rather be on a DMU with an exploding gearbox than one that cannot be relied upon to operate track circuits or has difficulty stopping in low adhesion conditions like the Cl158s.

Well...all three of those things apply to the Pacers, so when combined with the alarmingly weak bodyshells I'll be sticking with the 158s myself.