poshbakerloo
Member
I have to disagree with that. The Northern Spirit seat have very bad padding, they are lumpy and peoples knees stick thru the backs into the person sat in the chair. The 144 seats are very good I think.
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Class 142 Bad Condition
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I have to disagree with that. The Northern Spirit seat have very bad padding, they are lumpy and peoples knees stick thru the backs into the person sat in the chair. The 144 seats are very good I think.
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WillPS
Established Member
The Arriva Trains Northern units arent that good either - they were common in buses in the early 90s - basically a semi-coach seat with a useless headrest slapped on the top (if they ever had any spine to them, they certainly don't now). They also look really dirty - not a great moquette/interior colour scheme.
However, as long as they have enough padding left they'll do for a short hop.
I'm sorta of the opinion that refurbishing a Pacer doesn't really work - the most comfortable units as far as I'm concerned are the ones with bus seating, although granted I've never endured one during a time when they are full. The 3 across seating means there's lots of room to make yourself comfy.
However, as long as they have enough padding left they'll do for a short hop.
I'm sorta of the opinion that refurbishing a Pacer doesn't really work - the most comfortable units as far as I'm concerned are the ones with bus seating, although granted I've never endured one during a time when they are full. The 3 across seating means there's lots of room to make yourself comfy.
emoaconr
Member
I went on a Northern service from Manchester Piccadilly to Chester via Stockport a few weeks back... an almost 90 minute journey on a 142 
I have to say, the Northern Spirit "re-furbished" interior is absolutely foul. The colour of the seats makes them look 20 years older than what they actually are, and the head rest wasn't the best positioned. The large gap at the bottom of the door was quite disturbing, and I seemed to constantly be apologising to people evertime I was hurled over from side to side when standing up.
I personally do not mind the ATW 142's which I only ever come to use on the Valleys Network back down here... perhaps my preference for ATW's 142's is down to the shorter journey times :roll:
(I would have nominally gone through Warrington Bank Quay, if it wasn't for having to wait for a friend to get on in Knutsford)
I have to say, the Northern Spirit "re-furbished" interior is absolutely foul. The colour of the seats makes them look 20 years older than what they actually are, and the head rest wasn't the best positioned. The large gap at the bottom of the door was quite disturbing, and I seemed to constantly be apologising to people evertime I was hurled over from side to side when standing up.
I personally do not mind the ATW 142's which I only ever come to use on the Valleys Network back down here... perhaps my preference for ATW's 142's is down to the shorter journey times :roll:
(I would have nominally gone through Warrington Bank Quay, if it wasn't for having to wait for a friend to get on in Knutsford)
37372
Member
144 seats can be quite claustrophobic, but still better than the bus seats they originally had. At least they're slightly more comfortable.
As for the NS 142 refurbs, personally I think they're good! They're much nicer than bus seats or Merseryrail seats (more like buckets). Admittedly they're a bit dated now but they provide much better back support and are quite comfy to sit on. I'd rather have my knees pressed against the back of them than the hard, uncovered plastic/wood on other pacers.
I couldn't help but grin to myself on a Merseyrail pacer the other day when a man and woman sat behind me were discussing how awful the seats were
Tom (with over 2,200 miles on 142s/144s this year - I know what I'm on about
.)
As for the NS 142 refurbs, personally I think they're good! They're much nicer than bus seats or Merseryrail seats (more like buckets). Admittedly they're a bit dated now but they provide much better back support and are quite comfy to sit on. I'd rather have my knees pressed against the back of them than the hard, uncovered plastic/wood on other pacers.
I couldn't help but grin to myself on a Merseyrail pacer the other day when a man and woman sat behind me were discussing how awful the seats were
Tom (with over 2,200 miles on 142s/144s this year - I know what I'm on about
poshbakerloo
Member
I went on a Northern service from Manchester Piccadilly to Chester via Stockport a few weeks back... an almost 90 minute journey on a 142
The 142s are run on some of the most 'inappropriate' routes ever!
I am sure that the people who keep having a dig at Pacers were confined to travel on a old first generation DMU for a month (particularly an awful class 104 with dreary filthy wooden stained interiors, knackered engine mountings, dingy tungsten lights, awful bumpy ride over jointed track, which caused headaches and slow acceleration), then they would realize that the Northern refreshed 142s are much better all round. I am sure that TrainBrain185 will agree with me on this one. Maybe some have just forgot how terrible the units were that the Pacers replaced, or they are too young to remember. However, I remember them all too well and was very pleased when the Pacers replaced them.
The Pacers are not the first DMUs to have bus seats. The Class 103s were so fitted, the 108s had effectively bus seats without top handrails and one of the prototype 150s had them.
The ATW 142s should not be confused with the former Arriva Northern ones, as the former have Chapman seating.
The Pacers are not the first DMUs to have bus seats. The Class 103s were so fitted, the 108s had effectively bus seats without top handrails and one of the prototype 150s had them.
The ATW 142s should not be confused with the former Arriva Northern ones, as the former have Chapman seating.
O L Leigh
Established Member
No, it's just to do with the doors. They slide into recesses inside the bodyshells so providing extra windows would have been both costly and problematic. It's not beyond the wit of man to achieve this, but BR were trying to make a limited budget stretch as far as possible.
O L Leigh
Pacers are clearly inferior to 1st gen DMUs and were intended to be a cheaper - not better - alternative. No-one is too young to experience them as they are operating in regular service on two routes: Aylesbury to Prices Risborough and Cardiff Bay to Cardiff Queen Street. I've travelled on the Chiltern 121 a few times and there's nothing wrong with it whatsoever.
Things like poor maintenance during a period of Tory rule where the railways spent about a tenth of what they do now are hardly a fair comparison. That's more a comparison of maintenance standards then & now than comparing the actual units.
The bumpy ride on pacers can be quite fun in a way though, and those who think they should be replaced need to consider the fact that Pacers are cheap to run at the end of the day, and increasing costs could put frequencies or even whole lines in jeopardy.
Things like poor maintenance during a period of Tory rule where the railways spent about a tenth of what they do now are hardly a fair comparison. That's more a comparison of maintenance standards then & now than comparing the actual units.
The bumpy ride on pacers can be quite fun in a way though, and those who think they should be replaced need to consider the fact that Pacers are cheap to run at the end of the day, and increasing costs could put frequencies or even whole lines in jeopardy.
poshbakerloo
Member
Well I think the big question is...Do the pacer units do their job well?
Although it pains me to say it, I think they do most of the time...
Although it pains me to say it, I think they do most of the time...
Donny Dave
Established Member
Been there, done that ....
The only difference between a Pacer and a 104 (which ran around here before the pacers), is the interior. Only difference then was that I didn't have the luxury of being able to wait for a 15x or 185 instead, as the choice was a class 104, or if we were lucky, a class 111 (this is before pacers were introduced, obviously).
JustinStacey.x
Member
- Joined
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Such is the story all over Britain.
The evening rush in Glasgow sees class 314s being used on the Glasgow to Gourock/Wemyss Bay stretch. Now, as an enthusiast, I absolutely love this; few things beat blasting along at 75 in a 314 with the Windows open and the AWS bell ringing in your ear. However, for commuters they are understandably less favourable, with 1970s styling and low back seats, doors that do not open independently and on some units, shuddering brakes.
Class 156s run the entire North West Highland line from Glasgow (that's a long way to go on a unit that is again, not all that comfortable and spacious - unless you get a table seat).
Yet, while they have the 'crap' trains doing routes like that, they have Turbostars and 158s doing stupidly short routes like the Anniesland to Queen Street, and 320s running around in a circle all day - it's utter nonsense and makes me wonder about the people who are higher up in Network Rail - WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?!
They also have a tendency to couple trains together when the passengers could quite easily fit in one, and yet when there is high demand, like Rugby matches, they don't bother coupling any trains together!
WillPS
Established Member
Your post seems to read "I know Class 103s were okay because I've been on a Class 121" - surely that's like saying "I know Class 142s are okay because I've been on a Class 155".
From what I understand, the 121s are some of the best DMUs from that generation. My understanding of first generation DMUs is limited to what I've read - and a lot of that is a lot worse than I've ever experienced of any second generation DMU, Pacers included.
However.
I don't think we should be complacent with Pacers just because they replaced something worse 30 years ago. They're not up to modern safety standards, they're uncomfortable and they make a terrible noise (fingernails on blackboard amplified). It's shocking that there is still no solid plan to replace them.
I found that the poor suspension on jointed track of the 1st generation units was worse than Pacers and gave me headaches. From what I gather, some of the last first generation DMUs had better bogies as used on MK2 coaching stock. I think that the Class 123s and 124s were amongst these. However, I have never seen nor rode on these and none have been preserved, so I am in no position to judge them.
I found that the Metrolink trams on the Manchester to Bury line gave a worse ride than a Pacer despite having bogies.
I am very angry that the North seems to have been short changed again with the recently announced electrification schemes. The DfT have cancelled the orders for new DMUs which the region was going to have and we are going to receive cast offs again. Many lines will never be electrified and as 14xs and 150s are nearly a quarter of a century old, new DMUs will clearly be needed to replace them within the next decade.
I found that the Metrolink trams on the Manchester to Bury line gave a worse ride than a Pacer despite having bogies.
I am very angry that the North seems to have been short changed again with the recently announced electrification schemes. The DfT have cancelled the orders for new DMUs which the region was going to have and we are going to receive cast offs again. Many lines will never be electrified and as 14xs and 150s are nearly a quarter of a century old, new DMUs will clearly be needed to replace them within the next decade.
Well, I'm sure I spend too much time on here having a dig at Pacers, but as the gauntlet has been thrown down I'm afraid I just can't resist having another. This is mainly because out of the vast number of train types I've commuted on (including 150's, 158's, occasionally Mk 4's, Mk 3's and of course, Mk 1 slammers) Pacers are by far the worst most cramped, cheap and nasty uncomfortable trains I have to travel on.
With regard to the Mk 1 DMU's, I grew up in Kent so my experience of diesel traction was mainly of Thumpers dating back to the 1950's and 60's (and travelling on these was generally an ecstacy of pleasure in comparison to Pacer travel). I did, however, occasionally travel on some very long-in-the-tooth 1st generation Western Region DMU's which ran between Redhill and Tonbridge in the early nineties, and whilst they did seem rather basic in terms of passenger comfort, there weren't any noticable problems with regard to ride, smells, noise etc and certainly nothing worse than a Pacer unit today. I have also travelled more recently on similar units on preserved railways which has generally re-enforced my impression that the Pacers did not represent any sort of improvement at the time other than not suffering from problems associated with old age/lack of maintenance etc. That said, my experience was limited and there were probably a lot of poorly maintained life expired examples on the wider network at the time.
Perhaps if BR had decided to replace the first generation DMU's more gradually with better rolling stock instead of trying to do too much in one go, we might not now be lumbered with a large fleet of sub-standard trains with little prospect of replacement in the near future.
With regard to the Mk 1 DMU's, I grew up in Kent so my experience of diesel traction was mainly of Thumpers dating back to the 1950's and 60's (and travelling on these was generally an ecstacy of pleasure in comparison to Pacer travel). I did, however, occasionally travel on some very long-in-the-tooth 1st generation Western Region DMU's which ran between Redhill and Tonbridge in the early nineties, and whilst they did seem rather basic in terms of passenger comfort, there weren't any noticable problems with regard to ride, smells, noise etc and certainly nothing worse than a Pacer unit today. I have also travelled more recently on similar units on preserved railways which has generally re-enforced my impression that the Pacers did not represent any sort of improvement at the time other than not suffering from problems associated with old age/lack of maintenance etc. That said, my experience was limited and there were probably a lot of poorly maintained life expired examples on the wider network at the time.
Perhaps if BR had decided to replace the first generation DMU's more gradually with better rolling stock instead of trying to do too much in one go, we might not now be lumbered with a large fleet of sub-standard trains with little prospect of replacement in the near future.
I have travelled on old class 304 EMUs that used to work to Macclesfield and the Bury line 504s that were very similar apart from their operating voltage. The 304s rode like a seasaw, but at least the thick padded seat cushions absorbed some of the bounce! Both the 304s, 504s and similar classes from the same era were dreary to travel on and had small windows.
I hate 150s so much (particularly the 150/1s which are furnaces), that if one shows up on a Pacer diagram, I will wait of the next service rather than travel on it. I have done this lots of times. I cannot stand their noisy engines - 1980s technology at it's worst!
I hate 150s so much (particularly the 150/1s which are furnaces), that if one shows up on a Pacer diagram, I will wait of the next service rather than travel on it. I have done this lots of times. I cannot stand their noisy engines - 1980s technology at it's worst!
Sadly I never had the opportunity to travel on a 304 or 504 although the Southern units and 308's I've been on could certainly have quite a lively ride I've always loved the ambience of 50's and 60's era units, particularly before they changed from tungsten to flourescent lighting and have always found the view from the windows, even on suburban configuration trains perfectly good (except where carriage washer hadn't been working for a while - usually due to one of those hosepipe bans we always seemed to have down South).
After the Pacers, the 150's are probably the units I commute on most and I have to say I find them perfectly acceptable. They generally have enough leg room, are reasonably comfortable and the carriages are longer and less cramped than a Pacer. Whilst on holiday to Cornwall I travelled on quite a few that had been refurbished by First Great Western and was quite impressed by the standard, although they could all be improved by fitting some small tables in the facing seating bays.
I've always loved the ambience of 50's and 60's era units, particularly before they changed from tungsten to flourescent lighting and have always found the view from the windows, even on suburban configuration trains perfectly good (except where carriage washer hadn't been working for a while - usually due to one of those hosepipe bans we always seemed to have down South).After the Pacers, the 150's are probably the units I commute on most and I have to say I find them perfectly acceptable. They generally have enough leg room, are reasonably comfortable and the carriages are longer and less cramped than a Pacer. Whilst on holiday to Cornwall I travelled on quite a few that had been refurbished by First Great Western and was quite impressed by the standard, although they could all be improved by fitting some small tables in the facing seating bays.
308s were of very similar construction to 304s and 504s. Some cascaded 308s used to operate the newly electrified Leeds - Ilkley line in the mid 1990s until the new 333s arrived. These had been refurbished inside including new seats. There were also some refurbished 305s that worked the Manchester to Glossop/Hadfield services until 323s took over in 1997. I don't know what the difference between 304s, 305s and 308s were as they looked the same.
The FGW 150s may be well cared for. Five 142s were returned to Northern from FGW earlier on this year. FGW had clearly looked after them well.
New DMUs are going to be needed shortly for lines that are not being electrified and not hand me downs.
The FGW 150s may be well cared for. Five 142s were returned to Northern from FGW earlier on this year. FGW had clearly looked after them well.
New DMUs are going to be needed shortly for lines that are not being electrified and not hand me downs.
The Leeds 308's were the ones I used to commute on. I would have preferred a slightly gentler refurbishment - something more akin to the job done on some 4 EPB's during the early 1980's keeping the original deep cushioned seats and without all the rather clinical looking formica on the walls, but they were still pretty good - particularly the downgraded first class saloon.
I've never travelled on a FGW Pacer as they never seem to be on my route but I suspect FGW would have done a good job on them. We'll definately need quite a few more DMU's soon but I expect most of the existing ones will be cascaded around for some time to come.
I've never travelled on a FGW Pacer as they never seem to be on my route but I suspect FGW would have done a good job on them. We'll definately need quite a few more DMU's soon but I expect most of the existing ones will be cascaded around for some time to come.
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