Class 142 Bad Condition

[Bush]

They need replacing as they are slowly falling to bits on the insdie

If they were falling to bits inside buddy, they wouldn't be leaving the depots in the mornings! :roll:

 

[Meridian richard]

Yes but they are horrible, uncomfortable, the seats are low down, jerky

 

[asylumxl]

If they were falling to bits inside buddy, they wouldn't be leaving the depots in the mornings! :roll:

I think it's pretty clear that what TOCs consider acceptable is different to passengers.

They could atleast do with a going over and refurbishment.

 

[Meridian richard]

I agree they at least need to be refurbished

 

[bluenoxid]

If they were falling to bits inside buddy, they wouldn't be leaving the depots in the mornings! :roll:

Without healthy does of TLC and gaffer tape

 

[GNERman]

I agree they at least need to be refurbished

not refurbished, withdrawn, remanded, scrapped...

 

[northernbored]

The 158 refurbs are kwl, just like new trains

 

[ukrob]

not refurbished, withdrawn, remanded, scrapped...

Yes, that would be a great idea with nothing to replace them with and horrendous overcrowding....

 

[GNERman]

The 158 refurbs are kwl, just like new trains

yeah they are fair good
i travelled on 1 from Skipton - Leeds
the seats are fair comfy and springy...

 

[northernbored]

I seem to be on them daily and both types of seat (High Density and Big nd Comfy!) seem a lot better since there refurb, they give the whole carriage a cleaner look aswell.

 

[1D53]

There isnt a high density 158, they are all the same...

 

[ukrob]

There isnt a high density 158, they are all the same...

East Midlands Trains refurb 158s could be considered high density. I think just two tables per carriage now?

 

[1D53]

I was refering to Northern 158's only. EMT's are pretty much high density with the refurb definately.

 

[northernbored]

There isnt a high density 158, they are all the same...

I didn't realy mean High Density one of the seat types looks a bit more HD than the other.

 

[Meridian richard]

I do mlike the seats in the Northern Rail 158
They are alot better than a 142

 

[GNERman]

they should just put better seats in them and it would be a lot better...

 

[Meridian richard]

If the seats were like Northern 158 that would make the trains way better than before

 

[WillPS]

I didn't realy mean High Density one of the seat types looks a bit more HD than the other.

The seats are just what was in there before - Northern have just repadded and reupholstered them.

Northern's "mixed bag" of units means that they have a large number of different types of 158s - the ones most noticably different are the WYPTE ones, these only have 1 toilet per train, and have red stripes on the luggage racks as opposed to Regional Railway's two-tone blue. All the others have the standard seating, except a handful with Chapman seating. These look particularly weird as the Northern moquette mismatches the carpets quite badly.

 

[Muttley]

Where did you pick up that gem...?

I have never read anywhere that the Pacers were designed for such a limited life, and nor would I have expected BR to shell out for so many of them if they were only going to last a decade.

O L Leigh

At privatisation they were GIVEN to the ROSCOs with a valuation on the balance sheet of £0. So even back then they were considered close to or actually life expired. That there still in service is not a case for congratulation.

The tragedy of the messed up privatisation is that the tax-payer paid for the sets, a private company gets given them for free, and then is able to charge somewhere in the region of £120k-£180k pa per set, and the tax-payer still has to service/re-furb them.

 

[WillPS]

At privatisation they were GIVEN to the ROSCOs with a valuation on the balance sheet of £0. So even back then they were considered close to or actually life expired. That there still in service is not a case for congratulation.

The tragedy of the messed up privatisation is that the tax-payer paid for the sets, a private company gets given them for free, and then is able to charge somewhere in the region of £120k-£180k pa per set, and the tax-payer still has to service/re-furb them.

It's a sham - this is exactly the sort of thing people would have said would not happen with privatisation. ROSCOs have a license to print money, it's totally wrong.

 

[TrainBrain185]

Hi

Has anybody seen how the class 142s are getting old and rusty and are not very pleasent to travel on, and there have a lot of mechanical problems with them. Also the seats are very low down and there is not much room onboard the trains.

The class 142 are going tho be replaced with a new tram way system on the Penistone Line.

The Class 142 are a far far much better machine today than when new. The Frankensteins at BREL made sure they created the perfect monster when they were new. Leyland TL11 engines blowing all over the place, now they are Cummins L10, the horrid updated first generation SCG gearbox replaced by the Voith, the abysmal brake cable system replaced by direct brake controls, refurbished interiors and more reliable doors plus many other mods.
Over the years, they have improved a great deal and I find them okay.
So these getting old and rusty machines that are not pleasant to travel on now are light years better than when they were brand new!!! Oh, by the way, Walter Alexander and Andrew Barclay created the ultimate monster with the 143 in its original incarnation. Poor Heaton Depot!!

 

[anthony263]

I doubt the pacers used on the cardiff valley lines will be able to go on for more than 5 years, they should be replaced as a matter of urgency and if the cardiff valley lines are electrified i will hapilly hvae a classs 313/508 inseatd off a pacer.

Mind you lately the pacers are actually proving to be more reliable than the class 150's which seem to be breaking down a lot i have been on to recently which have been running with only 1 operational engine and this has caused them to be up to 15 minutes late

 

[GWRtom]

I doubt the pacers used on the cardiff valley lines will be able to go on for more than 5 years, they should be replaced as a matter of urgency and if the cardiff valley lines are electrified i will hapilly hvae a classs 313/508 inseatd off a pacer.

Mind you lately the pacers are actually proving to be more reliable than the class 150's which seem to be breaking down a lot i have been on to recently which have been running with only 1 operational engine and this has caused them to be up to 15 minutes late

The 150/1s on the Wessex line are very reliable never been delayed more than 4 minutes normally but thats usaully to do with pciking up the single line token

 

[TGVDUDE]

I LOVE the ATW 142's they're awsome!

 

[ed1971]

The Northern class 142s would benefit from an internal refurbishment. In my opinion, the ex Northern Spirit ones have the best seats and the ex Merseyrail (Miseryrail!) ones the worst. The former Northern Spirit ones are tall enough to provide neck support whilst not creating a claustrophobic atmosphere like the Richmond or Chapman seating does. If the armrests were dispensed with, then 2+3 seating in this style could be used.

I travelled a lot on Pacers when new. With SCG gearboxes, they were the quietest second generation units. The Voith gearboxes seemed to be badly matched to the Leyland TL11 engines and they made a lot of noise as they slogged their way along. It was a relief when Cummins engines started to be fitted. Mechanical transmission is 10% more fuel efficient than the Voith hydraulic version, which is why some new class 172s will have ZF mechanical transmission, which is similar to that on first generation DMUs.

Pacers are still a big advance on ride quality over the first generation units that they replaced. I have always thought that the Cass 150 is a weak design. The carriages are based on MK3 stock, the seats are not aligned with the windows and there is poor natural illumination. I would like to see these go before the 142s.

I have read on another forum that the 150 interiors are so hot in summer because it is necessary to put the heating on to keep the engine coolant temperature down.

I feel that the Metro Cammell Class 151 Sprinter prototypes were a lot better design and did not have the 150s failings. Had the design gone into production with BREL bogies and Voith transmission, then they would have had a winner. It is however understandable why BR ordered the 150s, as it urgently needed to replace asbestos filled life expired stock and the 150 prototypes appeared ahead of schedule.

 

[TrainBrain185]

I travelled a lot on Pacers when new. With SCG gearboxes, they were the quietest second generation units. The Voith gearboxes seemed to be badly matched to the Leyland TL11 engines and they made a lot of noise as they slogged their way along. It was a relief when Cummins engines started to be fitted. Mechanical transmission is 10% more fuel efficient than the Voith hydraulic version, which is why some new class 172s will have ZF mechanical transmission, which is similar to that on first generation DMUs.

Hello ed1971, the SCG was a fluid flywheel semi automatic type gearbox, not essentially known as a "mechanical" unit. Yes, I agree, the SCG in the Pacer unit was making the engine more fuel efficient than the replacement Voith 2-Speed.
The ZF Transmission you refer too is actually fully automatic and from my working experience with both Voith and ZF Autos I can enlighten you of their differences in characteristics.
The ZF is a closer ratio unit, having 4 or maybe 5 speeds opposed to the Voith using 2 or 3 speeds. The ZF is more direct from standing starts demanding lower engine revs going though the gear changes, whearas the Voith uses almost full revs through a gradual speed pickup to a certain time hold then having its change up to the next gear. The ZF, by virtue of more gears closer coupled will be an advantage if the train has for example, decelerated for a signal at caution and will demand lower revs from the engine to attain top speed. The Voith, in the same scenario, usually demands higher revs from the engine before "eventually" getting back into the top gear.
That said, the Voith is a great unit, as is ZF. Whether a ZF auto proves as reliable in rail application opposed to Voith remains to be seen.
Regards.

 

[ed1971]

Hello TrainBrain185,

Thanks for your detailed information about Voith and ZF DMU gearboxes.

I understand that the ZF unit is not new, it has been used for some years in other countries, an example being on Danish DMUs, so should be reliable.

When the Pacers had SCG gearboxes, they sounded very similar to Bristol RE, VRT and Daimler/Leyland 'Fleetline' buses and also had the wine. Was the SCG gearbox on these buses similar to the Pacer gearbox?

Another Pacer, believed to be 142042, derailed last week, having lost it's engine:- http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...erails-at-broadgreen-station-100252-23851950/

Regards.

 

[TrainBrain185]

Hello TrainBrain185,

Thanks for your detailed information about Voith and ZF DMU gearboxes.

I understand that the ZF unit is not new, it has been used for some years in other countries, an example being on Danish DMUs, so should be reliable.

When the Pacers had SCG gearboxes, they sounded very similar to Bristol RE, VRT and Daimler/Leyland 'Fleetline' buses and also had the wine. Was the SCG gearbox on these buses similar to the Pacer gearbox?

Another Pacer, believed to be 142042, derailed last week, having lost it's engine:- http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...erails-at-broadgreen-station-100252-23851950/

Regards.

Hello ed1971, the Pacers arrived originally with SCG Transmissions same as which went into PSV's. I do believe it was more a variant of the later Leyland Tiger coach gearbox. I could not remember the classic semi-auto whine on the Pacer which was really distinctive on the first gen DMU.
Regarding the engine securement failure on that 142, its not the first time its happened. In the early days we had a TL11 drop out, as well as the propshaft parting company and coming through the floor of a 143 and the occasional fuel tank fracture, also, the tie bar which connects to the back of the axle boxes used snap the bolt heads off. Thank goodness there was spare Class 47's and Mk1 coaching stock at the time.
Never mind, engineers have steadied the ship with Pacer problems and I think they are a fair-ish motor these days.
Regards:

 

[ed1971]

Hello TrainBrain185,

Thanks for replying again. The gearbox used in earlier Leyland Tigers was either a Leyland made 5 speed Pneumocyclic or ZF 6 speed Synchromesh.

The whine I was refering to on Daimler Fleetlines etc was probably from the differential. I recall that class 141s only seemed to wine in the rear carriage, though 142s and 144s seemed to whine in both. Could the whine have been from the reversing gear or the final drive?

There is a video on Youtube taken at Manchester Piccadilly in 1988. Around 32 secs into the film to the left an original 142 pulls out of the station. The whine can clearly be heard as it accelerates into the distance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYCzz8M6nrk

I recall that the first generation DMUS sounded very similar to the London Routemaster bus which used a SCG GB32 gearbox.

142053 also lost it's Cummins engine and derailed sometime during 1994 I think.

I do agree that Pacers are a fairish unit today and I doubt that an old class 101 unit would have come off much better in the Windsford crash. Consider the carnage at Clapham junction in December 1988 when only MK1 multiple unit stock was involved and the collision speeds were only 35mph.

 

[TrainBrain185]

Hello TrainBrain185,

Thanks for replying again. The gearbox used in earlier Leyland Tigers was either a Leyland made 5 speed Pneumocyclic or ZF 6 speed Synchromesh.

The whine I was refering to on Daimler Fleetlines etc was probably from the differential. I recall that class 141s only seemed to wine in the rear carriage, though 142s and 144s seemed to whine in both. Could the whine have been from the reversing gear or the final drive?

There is a video on Youtube taken at Manchester Piccadilly in 1988. Around 32 secs into the film to the left an original 142 pulls out of the station. The whine can clearly be heard as it accelerates into the distance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYCzz8M6nrk

I recall that the first generation DMUS sounded very similar to the London Routemaster bus which used a SCG GB32 gearbox.

142053 also lost it's Cummins engine and derailed sometime during 1994 I think.

Hi ed1971, yes indeed, pnuemocyclic transmission is an alternative description to the semi-auto box.
I never had any dealings of the 141, those being Neville Hill based as I do recall. Two of them are now based at the Weardale Railway, Wolsingham in Co. Durham. Will have to get there when the line opens as far as Bishop Auckland, hopefully later this year.
Regards;