Clarification needed on break of journey rules

[Drsatan]

I am planning on purchasing an off-peak return with the restriction code WG.

On the outward journey I am planning on breaking my journey on a Friday, and resuming it the following day.

The text concerning BoJ is as follows

BREAK OF JOURNEY
Break of journey is allowed on
the outward portion of
Off-Peak tickets UNLESS
OTHERWISE INDICATED BY A
RESTRICTION SHOWN AGAINST THE
TICKET'S VALIDITY CODE and
in all cases on the return
portion of Off-Peak return
tickets.

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket and until 04:29 the
following morning. If the
journey cannot be completed in
this time, the ticket may be
used to continue the journey
on the following day. Unless
otherwise indicated in the
relevant restriction code,
time restrictions apply as
from the initial origin
station on both days. The
appropriate restrictions for
the actual day on which travel
is being undertaken apply (for
example, it may be that day 1
is on Sunday, no restrictions
apply, but on day 2, the
Monday-Friday restrictions
apply). All travel must be
completed by 04:29 in the
morning after this second day.
Please note that break of
journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed in
the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak
Return tickets are valid for
travel until 0429 on the day
following the last day of
validity (i.e. one calendar
month from outward journey).
All travel must be completed
by this time.

The restriction code does not prohibit BOJs. The outward journey can be completed in one day, but would it be at all possible to break it?

 

[ainsworth74]

This is going to lead to an argument.

There is one school of thought that says that you can break your journey overnight on the outward portion no problem whenever you fancy. There is another school of thought that says you must travel as far as practical from when you start your journey and only if it is then not possible to complete can you break your journey overnight and if the journey (when you start) can be completed in one day then you must do so.

Both camps are certain in their position and will not budge.

 

[bb21]

It is certainly incorrect to say that one must travel as far as possible on the first day, because, for example, there may not be accommodation available there. In addition, the wording of the terms certainly does not indicate that.

Should a journey not be possible to complete on the first day, the decision as to where to take the overnight break rests entirely with the passenger.

 

[ainsworth74]

Like I said there are two schools of thought. Personally I'm with bb21 but I'm aware that there are others who disagree

 

[yorkie]

See Revised NRCoC

in particular:

I too am disappointed to note that the overnight BoJ rules for Off Peak/Super Off Peak Singles or the outward portion of Off Peak/Super Off Peak Returns appear to have removed the option for a passenger to break their journey if they wish.

These new rules seem to state that overnight BoJ is only to be permitted if the journey cannot be completed on day 1. That, according to Condition 11, isn't classed as a BoJ anyway.

Just to clear this up, you can choose where you break your journey overnight if you need to do so. You do not have to travel to the furthest possible point (after all, there might not be anywhere to stay there, so that would be daft!).

Break of journey used to be barred on the outward portion of Savers, but has been allowed since 2008 (since they became off-peak tickets) unless specifically restricted in the restriction code for the specific journey - this only applies to a small number of journeys.

So things are getting more flexible, not less!

A supplementary Q&A has been sent out to staff now to deal with some of the questions that have arisen, this will also hopefully clear up any confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From the staff briefing document (linked earlier), for Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Single; (also Outward portions of Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Returns):

Journey MUST commence on the date on the ticket. If the journey cannot be completed on first day, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. All travel must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days.​

I think the bit in bold means 04:29 on day two, not 04:29 on day three (since midnight, i.e. 00:00, is at the start of a day not the end). If so, then surely the new rules are clear that no travel at all is allowed after 04:29 on day 2, even if the journey could not be completed on day 1?

Er, it is actually meant to be 0429 on the third day. This has been clarified in the follow up Q&A sent out earlier this week. No-one spotted the confusing wording during the proof reading

It has now been clarified by ATOC in a brief that necessitation of break of journey is the customer's decision alone.

Hopefully all staff will read it!

 

[Drsatan]

This is going to lead to an argument.

There is one school of thought that says that you can break your journey overnight on the outward portion no problem whenever you fancy. There is another school of thought that says you must travel as far as practical from when you start your journey and only if it is then not possible to complete can you break your journey overnight and if the journey (when you start) can be completed in one day then you must do so.

Both camps are certain in their position and will not budge.

It is certainly incorrect to say that one must travel as far as possible on the first day, because, for example, there may not be accommodation available there. In addition, the wording of the terms certainly does not indicate that.

Should a journey not be possible to complete on the first day, the decision as to where to take the overnight break rests entirely with the passenger.

Thank you for your responses.

I recall reading in Barry Doe's column prior to the current revision of the NRCOC a story about overnight break of journey possibilities on SVS and SVR tickets. In response to some guards attempting to charge passengers a new ticket on the second day of travel for overnight BOJs, he stated that for most tickets, overnight BOJs were possible, providing the journey was completed by 12:00 the next day.

Now, as this column was written before I started to follow ticket restrictions, I am assuming the rules regarding overnight BoJs have been tightened up.

Unfortunately, the station at which I wish to break my journey has barriers. If I were to be refused access on the second day of my outward journey, what are my options? From what I have read on this forum, a minority of gateline assistants and guards ignore the NRCOC or deny its status as a legal contract.

 

[bb21]

Like I said there are two schools of thought. Personally I'm with bb21 but I'm aware that there are others who disagree

I didn't think that was the main disagreement in past discussions.

My understanding of the disagreement is over whether the passenger should commence his journey at a time which would enable the journey to be completed on the same day, should this be possible.

 

[Drsatan]

See Revised NRCoC

in particular:

Brilliant. As the memo was issued over three years ago, I doubt the station I would use would have a copy. I've copied the text of the memo, and will carry a printed copy in case of any arguments.

 

[bb21]

Thank you for your responses.

I recall reading in Barry Doe's column prior to the current revision of the NRCOC a story about overnight break of journey possibilities on SVS and SVR tickets. In response to some guards attempting to charge passengers a new ticket on the second day of travel for overnight BOJs, he stated that for most tickets, overnight BOJs were possible, providing the journey was completed by 12:00 the next day.

This was correct prior to the revision in October 2011. Now obviously you have two days (essentially) to complete your journey should the need arise with the deadline being 0429 on the third day.

Now, as this column was written before I started to follow ticket restrictions, I am assuming the rules regarding overnight BoJs have been tightened up.

Unfortunately, the station at which I wish to break my journey has barriers. If I were to be refused access on the second day of my outward journey, what are my options? From what I have read on this forum, a minority of gateline assistants and guards ignore the NRCOC or deny its status as a legal contract.

There is very little point getting into an argument because if they are not aware of this condition, they are unlikely to listen and be willing to budge. It also avoids giving them any ammunition claiming that you were being "awkward".

That happened to me at Maidenhead earlier this year, where I took an overnight break of journey on my way to Exeter. After being categorically denied access despite bringing up relevant pages on NRE, I simply purchased a single to Reading and continued my journey. I was initially refused the sale unless I purchased a ticket for my intended journey, to which I simply responded that it was at that point in time where I intended to go, and I would seek clarification from the relevant guard regarding my position after that. Needless to say the guard had no problem whatsoever.

I managed to obtain a refund from FGW afterwards however it was not given to me without me putting up a fight.

 

[yorkie]

That happened to me at Maidenhead earlier this year,...

Maidenhead? Doesn't surprise me, given what happened to Indigo2 at Reading (I think it was Reading), and what happened to me at Slough (their attitude was atrocious; I'd expect to get the sack if I treated customers like that). Oh, and let's not forget FGW were caught red-handed on TV incorrectly claiming tickets expired at 0230 at Reading a year or two ago.

To be fair, Indigo2 did get a refund & apology I recall, and a forum member contacted FGW about their wrong actions on TV and got assurances that staff at Reading would be appropriately trained in future.