Clapham Junction & Surbiton chaos

[455driver]

Always feel sorry for the victim and the train crew. Surbiton though seems to attract suicides so perhaps needs increased vigilance by BTP and PCSOs, could it be because there are 5 tracks, 4 platform faces and one on the up fast where passing speeds are 70 plus?

Surbiton does have extra patrols, in fact the member of staff who was injured is employed in that capacity and NEARLY prevented this incident.
When somebody loses their head and is that determined there isnt much anyone can do.
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No i think that ought to do for them. No need to look any closer.

Dont worry that was all the details they were getting.

(Nor should we leave any "bits" behind. It is a person who will have had a family and they deserve dignity in death)

Once the site has been released (from being a crime scene if done) the body is always treated with the greatest of respect, hence it takes a bit of time which most (but sadly not all) people accept.

 

[DarloRich]

Surbiton does have extra patrols, in fact the member of staff who was injured is employed in that capacity and NEARLY prevented this incident.
When somebody loses their head and is that determined there isnt much anyone can do.
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Dont worry that was all the details they were getting.

Once the site has been released (from being a crime scene if done) the body is always treated with the greatest of respect, hence it takes a bit of time which most (but sadly not all) people accept.

exactly - However there is a vocal minority who just dont seem to care.

 

[tsr]

exactly - However there is a vocal minority who just dont seem to care.

Whilst I fully agree that the greatest respect must be maintained, and that the most thorough and dignified recovery operation possible must take place, there have been some incidents where the emergency services have taken a very great deal longer than even a couple of hours to release the lines, and in some cases have been criticised by TOCs and NR for not letting railway staff and the coroner complete their work, in order that the line can be reopened.

I remember an incident within the last few years when a TOC did have what I feel was due cause to criticise the emergency services for insisting that a six-road mainline railway on the outskirts of a large city be closed completely for over three hours and partially for a further three hours.

I feel that whilst all such incidents are very unfortunate and distressing for those involved, it can do nobody any good to ignore many thousands of passengers, some of whom may have very important reasons for travel, some of whom may not take kindly to delays and thus abuse staff, some of whom may need to use the train to sustain their livelihoods, etc.

Nonetheless, as I say, dignity and sometimes justice must be maintained. I still think that leaving the deceased on a railway line for too long does not necessarily assist this, unless a necessary criminal investigation is very complex. It sometimes is, and I don't deny this. Obviously this is a great simplification of such scenarios. I apologise if such a simplification is not acceptable to some.

 

[DarloRich]

Whilst I fully agree that the greatest respect must be maintained, and that the most thorough and dignified recovery operation possible must take place, there have been some incidents where the emergency services have taken a very great deal longer than even a couple of hours to release the lines, and in some cases have been criticised by TOCs and NR for not letting railway staff and the coroner complete their work, in order that the line can be reopened.

I remember an incident within the last few years when a TOC did have what I feel was due cause to criticise the emergency services for insisting that a six-road mainline railway on the outskirts of a large city be closed completely for over three hours and partially for a further three hours.

I feel that whilst all such incidents are very unfortunate and distressing for those involved, it can do nobody any good to ignore many thousands of passengers, some of whom may have very important reasons for travel, some of whom may not take kindly to delays and thus abuse staff, some of whom may need to use the train to sustain their livelihoods, etc.

Nonetheless, as I say, dignity and sometimes justice must be maintained. I still think that leaving the deceased on a railway line for too long does not necessarily assist this, unless a necessary criminal investigation is very complex. It sometimes is, and I don't deny this. Obviously this is a great simplification of such scenarios. I apologise if such a simplification is not acceptable to some.

The main problem the police have is ensuring no crime has been committed. The victim could have been tied to the line. I suppose it may well depend on what the senior investigating officer feels is the right, evidential, thing to do.

If it is clear no crime has been committed, perhaps by reference to CCTV, I would hope they would allow the coroner and his team to undertake their duties as soon as possible thus allowing the lines to be reopened to traffic.

The problem, that doesn’t seem to be understood by all, is that each situation is different and has to be judged on a case by case basis. However every incident like this is a tragedy for everyone involved. There are no winners.

 

[sbt]

I think this applies:

"There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong." H L Mencken, 1917

 

[The Colonel]

455 driver - Your posts are very concise and reflect the situation as I heard it.

 

[Marvin]

Trains were back operating through the area 2 hours later, this would probably be the same if someone jumped from a bridge.

Actually, I'm very impressed that trains were back running after two hours. Kudos to all concerned.

 

[BestWestern]

Actually, I'm very impressed that trains were back running after two hours. Kudos to all concerned.

Agreed.

SWT and their respective colleagues at NR and the BTP are, sadly, very well practised in conducting the necessary clean up operations after this sort of thing, particularly at Surbiton and in the outer London areas When you stop to truly consider the magnitude of what happens at these times, delays of a couple of hours really are at the very lowest end of the scale of what could reasonably be expected. As countless others have said, it is not a quick operation to recover bodyparts which, very bluntly, may well be spread over a sizeable area of the railway if the train concerned was moving at speed. There are then the logistics of moving the train itself, which can be particularly challenging if it is in the vicinity of a busy station. It isn't unknown for platforms to have to be cleared of people whilst a train is brought through, for obvious and rather gruesome reasons. All of this has to wait of course until the BTP have concluded that there is no crime scene to be sealed off, and once a medical professional has actually declared the victim to be deceased.

Suicides are now a part of railway life, more in some areas than others. However frustrating people may find it when it happens, there really is little that can be done to stop somebody who is determined to take their own life in this way. It is commendable, though obviously terribly sad, that staff have been deployed in 'high risk' areas such as at Surbiton, but as this incident demonstrates only too graphically, you won't stop them all. There will always be plenty of locations from which a person can jump, no matter how proactive the authorities become.

Anybody who has spent more than very a brief time working on the railway will have heard numerous 'suicide stories', some of which are very unpleasant indeed. While it will always cause mayhem when it takes place on a busy main line, it really is one of those events which the railway cannot control, and which requires certain things to be dealt with in a certain way before things can get moving again. Passengers who find themselves inconvenienced should consider themselves fortunate that they weren't the person driving the train, or the person literally picking up the pieces

 

[embers25]

I am big critic of SWT but their handling of these situations, which seem unfortunately to happen all too regularly at Surbiton and Wimbledon particularly, is as good as it gets and they implement emergency timetables very rapidly and pretty effectively (when compare to EastCoast for example). One common complaint again with this one was that departure boards were not reflecting trains that were actualy running. I realise the situation was fluid and so to expect them to be correct is ridiculous. However SWT did make mention after the chaos of the snow last year that they were going to upgrade software so that departure boards only show trains that are actually running. Did this ever happen as certainly during all recent disruption I've experienced the boards remained wrong?

 

[455driver]

455 driver - Your posts are very concise and reflect the situation as I heard it.

Yep a very nasty incident and Surbiton is never a good place for this to happen.

I hope everyone else affected by this is getting the care they need!

 

[BestWestern]

...One common complaint again with this one was that departure boards were not reflecting trains that were actualy running. I realise the situation was fluid and so to expect them to be correct is ridiculous. However SWT did make mention after the chaos of the snow last year that they were going to upgrade software so that departure boards only show trains that are actually running. Did this ever happen as certainly during all recent disruption I've experienced the boards remained wrong?

I have to say that I think there are some rare instances, this being one example, when disruption is so widespread and severe that automated information systems become more of a hindrance than a help, owing to the fact that they simply cannot keep up with what is actually happening 'on the ground'. I can only speak for myself of course, but I personally would rather a simple blanket message along the lines of "No current information to display, please listen for announcements", accompanied by station or control centre staff manually announcing trains as they arrive, as opposed to the frustration of meaningless computer generated wibble which passengers generally have to make do with.

There is of course a great emphasis on providing up to date information to people when things go wrong, and it's an area that just about every TOC seems to continually focus very hard on improving, but I can't help feeling that sometimes the urgency to get information out actually makes things worse

 

[ushawk]

Actually, I'm very impressed that trains were back running after two hours. Kudos to all concerned.

Agreed, did look as if they had an emergency plan ready to be put in place (and it was) by terminating West of England trains at Basingstoke, Alton trains terminating at Woking, some diverting via Chertsey.

 

[ajdunlop]

Ok, I have heard others suggest it and though it to be completely impractical but have been changing my mind, so hear me out...
Platform barriers, there I said it.
Seriously though, I'm not suggesting anything as elaborate as those on the newer part of the Jubilee line where train doors have to line up so extra equipment needed on trains. And I am not suggesting every station just a few like Wimbledon and Surbiton that have particular problems. It must be costing SWT and NR a fortune given how often this is happening these days not to mention the human cost and the financial cost to commuters.
My suggestion is something like rolling shutters along the platform that come down until a stopper arrives when they roll up allowing access to the train no matter where the doors end up. The shutters segments could be transparent so they don't make platforms feel too claustrophobic.
I realise they aren't going to stop suicides but they may be that extra barrier that gives someone extra time to think about what they are about to do and stop a spur of the moment jumper.
I suppose something that may make it impractical is if trains are high frequency, what kind of frequencies are the trains that stop at Wimbledon and Surbiton per platform? It probably wouldn't work for some of the high freq platforms at Clapham Junction.
Stupid idea?

 

[tsr]

Ok, I have heard others suggest it and though it to be completely impractical but have been changing my mind, so hear me out...
Platform barriers, there I said it.
Seriously though, I'm not suggesting anything as elaborate as those on the newer part of the Jubilee line where train doors have to line up so extra equipment needed on trains. And I am not suggesting every station just a few like Wimbledon and Surbiton that have particular problems. It must be costing SWT and NR a fortune given how often this is happening these days not to mention the human cost and the financial cost to commuters.
My suggestion is something like rolling shutters along the platform that come down until a stopper arrives when they roll up allowing access to the train no matter where the doors end up. The shutters segments could be transparent so they don't make platforms feel too claustrophobic.
I realise they aren't going to stop suicides but they may be that extra barrier that gives someone extra time to think about what they are about to do and stop a spur of the moment jumper.
I suppose something that may make it impractical is if trains are high frequency, what kind of frequencies are the trains that stop at Wimbledon and Surbiton per platform? It probably wouldn't work for some of the high freq platforms at Clapham Junction.
Stupid idea?

It's an interesting idea, and I definitely won't call it stupid, but you will have rather a large number of issues with it. Nonetheless, an innovative solution is needed - and as soon as possible! Your idea could possibly form some sort of basis for this.

Here are some issues that may need to be overcome:

1. Different lengths of trains
2. Stations that are wind tunnels and that may require reinforced shutters/blinds
3. Timing - do the doors close at the same time or before the shutters/blinds? Is timing automatic/manual? These problems will be different compared to the LU (for example)
4. Could a nearby station, bridge or building be used for those who are determined to jump?
5. What about people getting trapped in the blinds?
6. How do you evacuate a train quickly? Jubilee Line sliding doors have emergency handles, but this would be different
7. What would happen if a platform was unstaffed and these blinds require staff?
8. Could children slip under the blinds as they are closing?

 

[Chris M]

I can only speak for myself of course, but I personally would rather a simple blanket message along the lines of "No current information to display, please listen for announcements"

In the December 2010 snow I needed to get from London Bridge to Battle. When I arrived at the station after a nightmare journey on the Jubilee, the "next fastest train to..." screens were showing "seek assistance" or "ask staff" (or something like that) for Battle. Given that the situation was rapidly changing, this was a good message to display. Even better would have been staff available to seek assistance from, but you can't have everything.

 

[ushawk]

Platform gates are only good for some stations. Good for stations like Purley and Harrow and Wealdstone, but they could never work at say Balcombe or Worplesdon because there are only 2 lines.

Only 1 fast line at Surbiton has a platform and im not sure how often trains stop there as to whether its worth it having gates.

 

[infobleep]

Unfortunately they terminated all trains from south of Guildford at Guildford and didn't make it clear, which is why a very large crowd of people ended up on Woking platform, there being about a 14 mile gap in between Woking and Guildford with no trains running. I was hoping to pick something up at Woking as no doubt were many others. We could have taken a slow train via the new lines to Guildford, with people changing their to go on further. That wouldn't be much different to having to do that from Clapham Junction during peak rush hour.

At London and Woking the departure boardswere only putting up trains that were running, bar one Southampton train at Woking where even the coaches themselves said not in service. One guard day Waterloo agreed with me I might as well travel to Woking and change there to reach Guildford.

Now if this were Harrow and Wealdstone, which got new departure boards last year, they would be listing all the trains and saying things like the 15.40 due in 2 minutes when it's 18.30 and the train had been cancelled.

I wouldn't be surprised if SWT didn't discuss the crowd at Woking, at an internal meeting. It was the largest I've ever seen there. Although during tube strikes some Overground stations are just as large. Any train company would reassess the crowd numbers, even if the out come was we couldn't do any more. That out come being perfectly fine if that is the case. Only so much a train company can do.

I am grateful for people giving more details. I'd hope it would help stop people being desensitised to these tragic events. It brings home how horrible these events really are. The Tube programme also highlighted this well by not shying away from the fact of how it can affect people.

I've come across 4 occurrences of people being hit by trains this week. Two were on the tube network. Is that number unusual for one week? I do wonder if the numbers are going up but then as I commute to London more often than 2-3 years ago, I think I may be hearing about it more often. I'm told it has reduced in Harrow, which where I work. Use to be once a month. They have a phone at Harrow and Wealdstone for people to be able to ring the Samaritans. They also put up railings last year to stop people getting access to the very fast lines so easily.

Of course the gates are only closed during the hours when the fast lines do not have stopping trains, which is during the day. Late at night and Sundays it's different.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Platform gates are only good for some stations. Good for stations like Purley and Harrow and Wealdstone, but they could never work at say Balcombe or Worplesdon because there are only 2 lines.

Only 1 fast line at Surbiton has a platform and im not sure how often trains stop there as to whether its worth it having gates.

Barriers would have made no difference in this instance as the train involved was on the slow line (platform one) and was stopping at Surbiton.

 

[ushawk]

Barriers would have made no difference in this instance as the train involved was on the slow line (platform one) and was stopping at Surbiton.

Oh right, i thought it was an up fast from Portsmouth to Waterloo which was involved and i read somewhere, obviously was wrong.

 

[Matt Taylor]

You may be right, there was an up Alton in Surbiton at the same time in Platform 1 which confuses the issue.

 

[tsr]

You may be right, there was an up Alton in Surbiton at the same time in Platform 1 which confuses the issue.

Could two different trains have been involved? Depending on the precise, er, physics of the incident, surely two trains could potentially strike the person? Obviously, that would be even worse.

 

[sbt]

I'm just hoping that the injured member of staff makes a good and quick recovery and that someone puts him up for a gong or commendation of some sort, even if only minor. It seems clear to me that to have received a broken arm he must have placed himself in danger by his, tragically unsuccessful, actions.

 

[The Colonel]

You may be right, there was an up Alton in Surbiton at the same time in Platform 1 which confuses the issue.

Deffo the fast line train involved, as it pulled up beyond the station. The one on Plat 1 was just there at the same time and remained there untill services resumed.