Clapham Junction during the peak.

[Norman]

Why do SWT not have any long-distance services stop at Clapham Junction in the peak hours? It seems ridiculous that someone wishing to go from, say, Barnes Bridge to Ash Vale may have to change at Clapham Junction-Surbiton-Woking rather than just at Clapham.

I know paths are tight but is it not impossible to have at least one fast train to Woking per 15/20 mins during the peak?

Or are they simply making customers pay extra for a Route:London ticket which takes longer?

Cheers

Norman.

 

[Matt Taylor]

The reason is very straightforward, the best way maximuse valuable track paths is to run all services to the same pattern as far as Surbiton where mainline trains can join the slow lines. Stopping one train at Clapham would mean sacrificing a path from Waterloo.

 

[cle]

Could they get around this by using platform 8 as a fast loop for the peak flow?

I know they kind of do this already - but send all Waterloo-bound fast trains through 7 and all Surbiton-bound fast trains through 9.

And in the morning, for example, stop some trains towards Waterloo in 7, but then allow trains to go fast through 8 and overtake?

And the reverse in the PM. And then all stopping off peak, with platform 8 not seeing any use.

 

[Tomnick]

That way, your stopping train would occupy one path arriving at Clapham Jn. It'd then have to sit there for a good few minutes while the fast train passes in the second path, before departing in a third path. So the stopper's taking up two paths anyway, with the additional disadvantage of an extended stop at Clapham Jn.

There's no way of doing that in the evening either - the track layout doesn't allow it.

 

[Matt Taylor]

The main problem with that is the very restrictive speed limit in Platform 7, you can't do a 'quick stop' at Clapham in the morning peak in Platform 7 and there is no bi-directional signalling to allow trains to run countrybound from Platform 8.

 

[Norman]

I have no idea about the practacalities of it, but what about making an existing Guildford or Woking terminator stop at Clapham (pl 11 is the slow line I think?) then have it run fast to Surbiton changing over to the fasts ASAP? Or is there nowhere to do this? There are surely more than enough other stopping services to Surbiton to cater for people wishing to travel to Earlsfield. Wimbledon, New Malden etc to allow this to happen?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I have no idea about the practacalities of it, but what about making an existing Guildford or Woking terminator stop at Clapham (pl 11 is the slow line I think?) then have it run fast to Surbiton changing over to the fasts ASAP? Or is there nowhere to do this? There are surely more than enough other stopping services to Surbiton to cater for people wishing to travel to Earlsfield. Wimbledon, New Malden etc to allow this to happen?

p11 is indeed the DS. The earliest opportunity thereafter to cross to the DF is at Wimbledon West Jn, passing through Earlsfield (Station) and Wimbledon is the process.

 

[cle]

That way, your stopping train would occupy one path arriving at Clapham Jn. It'd then have to sit there for a good few minutes while the fast train passes in the second path, before departing in a third path. So the stopper's taking up two paths anyway, with the additional disadvantage of an extended stop at Clapham Jn.

There's no way of doing that in the evening either - the track layout doesn't allow it.

I see. Are there enough tracks from CJ to Waterloo to have three fast lines for the entirety so it wouldn't clog paths - one being bidi?

 

[Tomnick]

I suspect not - and fairly extensive remodelling and resignalling would be required in any case to provide the necessary connections.

 

[Lampshade]

I thought it was just to keep people off peak Waterloo services using NOT LONDON tickets :?

 

[swt_passenger]

Could they get around this by using platform 8 as a fast loop for the peak flow?

I know they kind of do this already - but send all Waterloo-bound fast trains through 7 and all Surbiton-bound fast trains through 9.

And in the morning, for example, stop some trains towards Waterloo in 7, but then allow trains to go fast through 8 and overtake?

And the reverse in the PM. And then all stopping off peak, with platform 8 not seeing any use.

The line speed through P8 is only 40 mph, but through the P7 loop and the points at either end of it is only 15 mph. Using it as a passing loop ruins the pathing of following through trains whatever solution you suggest. Using at as the only Up line in the evening peak would cause huge delays to all Up trains, and P8 cannot be used by down trains anyway, so an overtaking solution isn't possible. Another big reason for not stopping down trains in the evening peak is that half the train cannot open its doors, so dwell time would be excessive.

However if you'd actually read his question properly, the OP seems to be asking about stopping down direction trains in the morning, as his journey is from Barnes to Ash Vale... :roll:

The solution is to provide the additional reversible line inbound from Surbiton as shown in the London and SE RUS (diagram attached below). Until then changing trains is really the only option...

 

[cle]

The line speed through P8 is only 40 mph, but through the P7 loop and the points at either end of it is only 15 mph. Using it as a passing loop ruins the pathing of following through trains whatever solution you suggest. Using at as the only Up line in the evening peak would cause huge delays to all Up trains, and P8 cannot be used by down trains anyway, so an overtaking solution isn't possible. Another big reason for not stopping down trains in the evening peak is that half the train cannot open its doors, so dwell time would be excessive.

However if you'd actually read his question properly, the OP seems to be asking about stopping down direction trains in the morning, as his journey is from Barnes to Ash Vale... :roll:

The solution is to provide the additional reversible line inbound from Surbiton as shown in the London and SE RUS (diagram attached below). Until then changing trains is really the only option...

Well if you're going to use such a haughty tone, if you'd read his post, you'd see the Barnes/Ash Vale journey was worded as a hypothetical example of the problem, rather than his specific journey.

You might also assume said passenger might want to return, or that the reverse journey might be undertaken one day.

x

 

[SWT_USER]

There are a couple of trains in the evening peak to Aldershot via Richmond and Feltham which stop at Ash Vale would only require one change at Feltham to get to Ash Vale to solve the OP's hypothetical problem.

 

[Norman]

I'm not too bothered about getting to Ash Vale, it was just an example of a journey I have made which seemed to involve a lot of changing just because Woking fasts didn't call at CLJ in the peaks - I was just highlighting the inconvenience caused to anyone wishing to travel past Woking and not via WAT at peak-times (both AM and PM both ways). The Feltham route is a lot slower than going via WOK, which whilst one suffers the inconvenience of more changes, the journey is only prolonged by about 15 mins compared to off-peak!

I would hope that if it ever became possible, SWT would start stopping at CLJ during peaks and not frce travel via WAT to force the purchas of a via LON ticket...:-x

 

[SwindonPkwy]

Given that SWT services through Clapham Junction to Waterloo seem to be operating at capacity in the peaks, what infrastructure/rolling stock improvements are realistic? In particular, should Crossrail 2 go ahead, then Clapham Junction would become even more important for interchanges. Is remodeling (similar to Reading) possible?

 

[Crispy75]

londonreconnections had a good piece on this: http://www.londonreconnections.com/...reasing-services-on-the-south-west-main-line/

The current RUS has three options for increasing capacity

1. Double decker trains - pretty much a non-starter for lots of reasons
2. 4 extra paths from some Waterloo approach remodeling and grade separation of woking junction.
3. 16-car trains into the E* platforms. Extend platforms at Basingstoke or Woking, join two 8-car services there then run non-stop to Waterloo (unless they can find space to lengthen platforms at any other stations along the way). Would need a flyover to get trains onto the Northernmost tracks (and most likely sever the SLL connection).

None of which directly addresses the OP's concerns as extra CLJ stops are not included :-/

 

[SwindonPkwy]

Crispy75, thank you. It sounds like in the longer term something more radical may be needed.

 

[swt_passenger]

londonreconnections had a good piece on this: http://www.londonreconnections.com/...reasing-services-on-the-south-west-main-line/

The current RUS has three options for increasing capacity

1. Double decker trains - pretty much a non-starter for lots of reasons
2. 4 extra paths from some Waterloo approach remodeling and grade separation of woking junction.
3. 16-car trains into the E* platforms. Extend platforms at Basingstoke or Woking, join two 8-car services there then run non-stop to Waterloo (unless they can find space to lengthen platforms at any other stations along the way). Would need a flyover to get trains onto the Northernmost tracks (and most likely sever the SLL connection).

None of which directly addresses the OP's concerns as extra CLJ stops are not included :-/

That london reconnections article is overtaken by events. It's based on the draft RUS, the final version binned all those options and came down in favour of the fifth track I just mentioned on the previous page, which does allow for Clapham Jn calls...

 

[Crispy75]

Ah, that's interesting to know, thanks

 

[ChiefPlanner]

swt_passenger;833241]The line speed through P8 is only 40 mph, but through the P7 loop and the points at either end of it is only 15 mph. Using it as a passing loop ruins the pathing of following through trains whatever solution you suggest. Using at as the only Up line in the evening peak would cause huge delays to all Up trains, and P8 cannot be used by down trains anyway, so an overtaking solution isn't possible. Another big reason for not stopping down trains in the evening peak is that half the train cannot open its doors, so dwell time would be excessive.
[/I]

This has been identified as an issue and SWT / NR are hoping to resolve it - the turnout is now 40mph , but the signalling needs altering as it is (I believe) Approach controlled. There are other issues also at the London end of Platform 7. This doesnt however , really allow for much - if any - stopping capacity with this change , but the trains would "flow" better.

The timetable is largely segregated to fasts and slows from Surbton inwards not crossing over -