Claiming delay repay if the service wasn't running at all

[helpwithdelayr]

Hi there, I have an unusual situation.

I had a journey from Folkestone to Manchester Piccadilly which was fine on the way up, if slightly delayed.

On the way back down, from Manchester Piccadilly to Folkestone on Sunday the 20th of April, it was horrendous.

I was told the Avanti service was not running at all on that day.

They are trying to wiggle out of it on that basis.

The whole reason my journey took twice as long as because their service wasn't running. This resulted in two buses, 90 minute wait in the middle of nowhere, then a packed train to reading, then reading to London Paddington, then the underground to st pancras.

To cut to the chase, instead of arriving in London at about 1200, I arrived at 1630.

Any ideas on the way forwards?

 

[signed]

FYI no services were running to/from Euston on that day

Services were running to Milton Keynes Central with RRB to the Chiltern Main Line and Chiltern to Marlyebone. RTT confirms this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Delay Repay is based on the planned timetable that day. As no Avanti service to Euston was planned due to engineering work, you were not delayed and therefore Delay Repay is not applicable. Sorry.

It would be applicable if you were delayed against the timetable that was planned to run that day, however.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi there, I have an unusual situation.

I had a journey from Folkestone to Manchester Piccadilly which was fine on the way up, if slightly delayed.

On the way back down, from Manchester Piccadilly to Folkestone on Sunday the 20th of April, it was horrendous.

I was told the Avanti service was not running at all on that day.

They are trying to wiggle out of it on that basis.

That’s correct. They aren’t liable if they weren’t timetabled to run any trains. This timetable would have been set long in advance.

To cut to the chase, instead of arriving in London at about 1200, I arrived at 1630.

Did you take the planned alternative route? Did you suffer any delays while travelling on that alternative route, beyond of course not travelling directly?

Any ideas on the way forwards?

Best to check engineering works in future and plan accordingly!

 

[30907]

On the way back down, from Manchester Piccadilly to Folkestone on Sunday the 20th of April, it was horrendous.

I was told the Avanti service was not running at all on that day.

By whom?

The whole reason my journey took twice as long as because their service wasn't running. This resulted in two buses, 90 minute wait in the middle of nowhere, then a packed train to reading, then reading to London Paddington, then the underground to st pancras.

Please could you give us some more detail of the trains you used.
There were hourly direct trains to Milton Keynes and to Reading that day, so I can't work out what your journey was.

Services were running to Milton Keynes Central with RRB to Bedford and Thameslink to St Pancras RTT confirms this.

Corrected information per RTT

 

[Haywain]

The planned alternative route was Avanti train to Milton Keynes, rail replacement bus from there to Bedford (every 10 minutes or so) and then a train to London St Pancras. That looks to have run fairly efficiently on Sunday with an overall journey time of a little under 4 hours.

 

[helpwithdelayr]

Hi, I asked a member of the station staff "what's the quickest way to London"

And was told the following route:

Bus from Manchester Piccadilly to Stockport
Bus from Stockport to Wilmslow
90 minute wait at Wilmslow (11:42 train was cancelled)
Cross country train at 12:42 to Reading
Reading to London Paddington

I got to London at about 16:30 rather than around 1200 as I should have done.

It was certainly not worth £150, I could have paid £30 for a national express bus and got there for the same time!

 

[Haywain]

I asked a member of the station staff "what's the quickest way to London"

I find it utterly bizarre that a journey involving two buses could ever be considered the quickest. Did you have split tickets that's required a certain route to be taken?

 

[helpwithdelayr]

I find it utterly bizarre that a journey involving two buses could ever be considered the quickest. Did you have split tickets that's required a certain route to be taken?

No, it was an open return. I didn't even show them my ticket.

It would appear I am screwed for compensation, then.

It's just weird that they didn't tell me that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Railway staff giving advice worse than simply looking at an website again. Don’t bother asking in future. Use FastJP or any other ticket site to build an itinerary. I cannot emphasise enough how widespread incompetence is on the railway.

Which member of staff told you this information? You can try making a claim on the basis you were told a load of guff from the company that employs them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hi, I asked a member of the station staff "what's the quickest way to London"

And was told the following route:

Bus from Manchester Piccadilly to Stockport
Bus from Stockport to Wilmslow
90 minute wait at Wilmslow (11:42 train was cancelled)
Cross country train at 12:42 to Reading
Reading to London Paddington

I got to London at about 16:30 rather than around 1200 as I should have done.

It was certainly not worth £150, I could have paid £30 for a national express bus and got there for the same time!

A bit surprising that they didn't say to go to Sheffield then to London from there. That was actually written on a notice board at Piccadilly though the trains would have been very busy!

However if there was a cancellation in your itinerary and that caused delay of 15 minutes or more compared to what you would have done if that cancellation didn't happen, then you ARE entitled to Delay Repay based on that itinerary. You should claim it from the TOC whose train was cancelled - CrossCountry I think. It looks to me like that's likely to be either a 30 or 60 minute claim depending on the exact timings of the connections from Reading to Paddington (i.e. when you would have arrived at Paddington had that train not been cancelled vs. when you actually did).

You're not however entitled to it based on what would run on a normal day, just based on the timetable of that day and the itinerary you intended to take.

As for the general point, why did you not do your research to check that there wasn't engineering work on a bank holiday as there almost always is? You could indeed then have saved the money and gone by coach.

 

[Haywain]

It's just weird that they didn't tell me that.

It is weird. You appear to have travelled at a time when there was a train to Milton Keynes leaving fairly soon (there was a departure at 10:20) and one to Sheffield (10:15), so directing you to one of those would have made more sense.

 

[NorthernSystem]

Hi, I asked a member of the station staff "what's the quickest way to London"

And was told the following route:

Bus from Manchester Piccadilly to Stockport
Bus from Stockport to Wilmslow
90 minute wait at Wilmslow (11:42 train was cancelled)
Cross country train at 12:42 to Reading
Reading to London Paddington

I got to London at about 16:30 rather than around 1200 as I should have done.

It was certainly not worth £150, I could have paid £30 for a national express bus and got there for the same time!

Hiya, that's an odd routing, especially this Sunday just gone. Full context, I was at the station working on Sunday. Most passengers for London were either being advised to travel on rail services Manchester-Sheffield, then to St Pancras, or Manchester-Doncaster for Kings Cross. Otherwise, Avanti were running services from Manchester to Milton Keynes Central, where connections could have been made for Bedford and the MML to St Pancras (didn't know about buses to the Chiltern line, that's a new one @signed)

Was it a member of Avanti West Coast Gateline/Ticket office that advised you of that route?

We were seeing heavy crowding on the Sheffield/Doncaster Services due to the engineering works (Stockport and Euston), plus some for the Wolves vs United Match.

 

[WesternLancer]

Might

Hi, I asked a member of the station staff "what's the quickest way to London"

And was told the following route:

Bus from Manchester Piccadilly to Stockport
Bus from Stockport to Wilmslow
90 minute wait at Wilmslow (11:42 train was cancelled)
Cross country train at 12:42 to Reading
Reading to London Paddington

I got to London at about 16:30 rather than around 1200 as I should have done.

It was certainly not worth £150, I could have paid £30 for a national express bus and got there for the same time!

could this have possibly been the sort of strange advice google might have given or via some sort of AI interpretation? As opposed to what a railway official website might have advised perhaps. Not that this helps much.

 

[tram21]

Bus from Manchester Piccadilly to Stockport
Bus from Stockport to Wilmslow
90 minute wait at Wilmslow (11:42 train was cancelled)
Cross country train at 12:42 to Reading
Reading to London Paddington

As said above, you can and should apply for delay repay for this cancellation. I would do this first, you should hopefully recieve 50% of the return, assuming you were 60+ mins late. EDIT: having a quick look, I assume you arrived at Paddington at 16.30? Had the train not been cancelled it would have been 15.26, so will be 60 mins delay repay!

Following this, and separate to this, I would recommend a complaint to Avanti (probably, depending on who you spoke to) about their advice, and depending how that goes you may receive some compensation: Avanti often like to give out journey vouchers, e.g. 50% off your next trip etc. That would be in addition to the delay repay as above.

 

[station_road]

It is weird. You appear to have travelled at a time when there was a train to Milton Keynes leaving fairly soon (there was a departure at 10:20) and one to Sheffield (10:15), so directing you to one of those would have made more sense.

And when the target train from Wilmslow (that was cancelled) should have started from Piccadilly anyway at 11.24 - a Cross Country service to Reading did run from Piccadilly at 10.26.

 

[Haywain]

And when the target train from Wilmslow (that was cancelled) should have started from Piccadilly anyway at 11.24 - a Cross Country service to Reading did run from Piccadilly at 10.26.

And the aforementioned 10:20 to MK also called at Wilmslow. I think someone had a brain fart in suggesting taking two buses to get there! I'd love to know who this person works for.

 

[WesternLancer]

C

And the aforementioned 10:20 to MK also called at Wilmslow. I think someone had a brain fart in suggesting taking two buses to get there! I'd love to know who this person works for.

Carlisle Security?

 

[Dr Hoo]

So are we saying that Avanti was responsible for a CrossCountry cancellation at Wilmslow?

 

[30907]

So are we saying that Avanti was responsible for a CrossCountry cancellation at Wilmslow?

No, but tram21 suggests they might have been responsible for the duff info.
The delay repay claim obviously goes to XC.

 

[AlterEgo]

No, but tram21 suggests they might have been responsible for the duff info.
The delay repay claim obviously goes to XC.

It goes to Avanti (assuming it is indeed their staff) in my view who caused the initial delay by giving the customer the slowest possible route.

 

[Haywain]

No, but tram21 suggests they might have been responsible for the duff info.

The OP suggests it is railway staff but is far from clear about which company thst person worked for.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The OP suggests it is railway staff but is far from clear about which company thst person worked for.

Were there perhaps Rail Replacement Bus Coordinators, in a uniform/tabard/ lanyard of some sort or clearly in a position of knowledge and authority, who knew everything about buses to Stockport and thence Wilmslow but nothing whatsoever about trains leaving a few yards away direct to Sheffield, Doncaster, Milton Keynes or Reading?

 

[tram21]

It goes to Avanti (assuming it is indeed their staff) in my view who caused the initial delay by giving the customer the slowest possible route.

But that would take far longer and be much harder, with a smaller chance of success on delay repay grounds.

I say you go for the crosscountry delay repay first, get that done then hope for further compensation from Avanti, which is in addition to the delay repay Crosscountry would pay.

 

[AlterEgo]

But that would take far longer and be much harder, with a smaller chance of success on delay repay grounds.

But that would be the correct route to take. Avanti owes the customer delay repay. They caused the first delay (assuming it’s their staff!).

 

[tram21]

But that would be the correct route to take. Avanti owes the customer delay repay. They caused the first delay (assuming it’s their staff!).

We can't be sure it was Avanti's staff that said that though. For all we know it could be an EMR guard on a break or something like that!! (For example!!)

 

[helpwithdelayr]

Were there perhaps Rail Replacement Bus Coordinators, in a uniform/tabard/ lanyard of some sort or clearly in a position of knowledge and authority, who knew everything about buses to Stockport and thence Wilmslow but nothing whatsoever about trains leaving a few yards away direct to Sheffield, Doncaster, Milton Keynes or Reading?

Actually, that was the case. From you post, it has jogged my memory.

I asked the rail replacement bus coordinator.

Edit: or was it a bus driver talking to another bus driver? It was a chap wearing a hivis talking to a bus driver not wearing hivis at Manchester Piccadilly.

But then at Wilmslow it was definitely a rail replacement bus driver who told me to continue on the route initially proposed.

Additionally, when I looked on the Trainline app, it said "rail replacement bus" for my intended route.

Between the two, I was convinced I needed a bus and that there was no rail route from Manchester Piccadilly.

I have put in a claim with Cross Country who say they have no record of a service arriving at Wilmslow for 11:42. They said they need information for the bus journey times as well as the train times for the intended route, which I have already tried approximating in my initial claim form, but they say it is not accurate enough.

I don't know where I could find that historic information.

This whole thing is looking like I will have to give up on it. It is a nightmare of filling out forms and giving details, just to lead to a dead end.

I don't know who to claim against if a rail replacement bus coordinator gave out wrong information.

Not to blame them, it must be incredibly confusing, but the journey was an unnecessary ordeal that I don't believe was worth 1/2 of a £150 ticket.

Edit: please see the attached reply from Cross Country.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2025 ==

Just conclude the thread, Cross Country have paid out, but it was not straightforward. I had to call up and one of the customer service representatives had to work through the claim and then get it approved by the manager.

It was far from a straight forward process and at one point I thought I wasn't going to get anywhere!

As it was a rail replacement bus operator of even a bus driver who got me started on that route. So I wouldn't know who to claim from if Cross Country wouldn't pay out.

 

[WesternLancer]

Actually, that was the case. From you post, it has jogged my memory.

I asked the rail replacement bus coordinator.

Edit: or was it a bus driver talking to another bus driver? It was a chap wearing a hivis talking to a bus driver not wearing hivis at Manchester Piccadilly.

But then at Wilmslow it was definitely a rail replacement bus driver who told me to continue on the route initially proposed.

Additionally, when I looked on the Trainline app, it said "rail replacement bus" for my intended route.

Between the two, I was convinced I needed a bus and that there was no rail route from Manchester Piccadilly.

I have put in a claim with Cross Country who say they have no record of a service arriving at Wilmslow for 11:42. They said they need information for the bus journey times as well as the train times for the intended route, which I have already tried approximating in my initial claim form, but they say it is not accurate enough.

I don't know where I could find that historic information.

This whole thing is looking like I will have to give up on it. It is a nightmare of filling out forms and giving details, just to lead to a dead end.

I don't know who to claim against if a rail replacement bus coordinator gave out wrong information.

Not to blame them, it must be incredibly confusing, but the journey was an unnecessary ordeal that I don't believe was worth 1/2 of a £150 ticket.

Edit: please see the attached reply from Cross Country.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2025 ==

Just conclude the thread, Cross Country have paid out, but it was not straightforward. I had to call up and one of the customer service representatives had to work through the claim and then get it approved by the manager.

It was far from a straight forward process and at one point I thought I wasn't going to get anywhere!

As it was a rail replacement bus operator of even a bus driver who got me started on that route. So I wouldn't know who to claim from if Cross Country wouldn't pay out.

Glad to hear you got a reasonable outcome.

Not your fault at all but I suspect the lesson is that asking people associated with the replacement bus operation is probably the least best people to ask advice from (apart from where their specific bus is going).