Cl.442 replacement?

[antharro]

With all this talk of new trains and subsequent stock shuffles, has any thought been given to replacing the Class 442s on the Brighton mainline? I know they're fine for a good few years yet but eventually they'll be life expired...

A build of trains that are actually good for the route they serve would be good - having the 442s as Gatwick services seems daft given they have narrow doors so not so good for luggage as their predecessors!

 

[gazthomas]

Buy some more 377's or go for 444's or 450's

 

[Phillipimo]

what was wrong with the 460's? they were made for the job!

 

[Manchester77]

what was wrong with the 460's? they were made for the job!

They're becoming 458/5s

 

[swt_passenger]

what was wrong with the 460's? they were made for the job!

There weren't enough of them to run the extended service to from Brighton in the peaks, as called for by DfT. Once the 442s were returned to service for the peak service it made no sense to have an alternate fleet used only in the off peak periods.

 

[D365]

Buy some more 377s or go for 444s or 450s.

377/5 has suggested the option of an addition to the Thameslink RSP to provide a 700 fleet for Gatwick/BML Expresses. That could work, with maintenance at Three Bridges perhaps. Otherwise a 377/8 build. 30-35 6-car units?

Ensure the 19 313s can be replaced too please; I hear extra units might be needed back at their rightful home?!

 

[GatwickDepress]

I hope the 442s don't go too quickly. I still haven't ridden all of them! Because, you know, my personal goals are far more important than ensuring riders of the Gatwick Express have a modern train to associate with the glamorous image Southern wish the Gatwick Express had.

what was wrong with the 460's? they were made for the job!

Don't worry, according to National Rail Southern still operate them.

 

[tsr]

Don't worry, according to National Rail Southern still operate them.

National Rail Enquiries... for the needs of time-travelling trainspotters!

 

[MCR247]

Oh yeah the 4 carriage 460s!

I do love the:

First Class accessible toilet? NYes

 

[Class377/5]

377/5 has suggested the option of an addition to the Thameslink RSP to provide a 700 fleet for Gatwick/BML Expresses. That could work, with maintenance at Three Bridges perhaps. Otherwise a 377/8 build. 30-35 6-car units?

Ensure the 19 313s can be replaced too please; I hear extra units might be needed back at their rightful home?!

There's no reason why it has to be 377's as they could use the class 700 design with a differently spec-ed interior.

They be 377/9 at this rate (377/8 now look to be the Thameslink units Southern announced).

Roger Ford talked about this last year with five car Electrostars units with doubled up in peak/busy periods to replace the 442's (along with possible more five car 377 to replace the 377/3's).

 

[yorksrob]

I thought that the whole point of the 442‘s is that they actually run an express service to the coast encompassing Gatwick Airport, rather than an airport shuttle, hence why they have an express layout.

 

[Class377/5]

I thought that the whole point of the 442‘s is that they actually run an express service to the coast encompassing Gatwick Airport, rather than an airport shuttle, hence why they have an express layout.

It was however its a waste of valuable peak paths hence being extended to Brighton.

 

[yorksrob]

Quite, so why are there endless arguments about going back to trains with a suburban layout.

Alternatively, why not use the 442‘s on some of the other express services and swap them with electrostars.

 

[Class377/5]

Quite, so why are there endless arguments about going back to trains with a suburban layout.

Alternatively, why not use the 442‘s on some of the other express services and swap them with electrostars.

Suburban layout is a bad idea. One idea I've heard of (,don't remember where from), was to have a set of 377's with airport layout and couple to another 377 and go into London. Theory was units would sit around in the platform for awhile to allow for airport loading times.

However not sure what service it could be attached to but extra services running on the BML may require the paths from the Airport services with train lengthening as a result of the 700 introduction.

 

[jopsuk]

Wasn't one of the original forerunners of the Gatwick Exprtess a set of modified units that did just that- uncoupled on the way Down to Bogor at Gatwick, coupled back to the front of an Up service for the way back, with the airport unit having more luggage space? This before the Class 73/488/489 formations. Searching seems to show these as being converted 4VEPs known as 4VEG

 

[oddiesjack]

Am I the only one who sees the l as a 1 in the phrase C1.442 in the title of this thread and immediately thinks of Ivatt large-boilered atlantics?

 

[yorksrob]

Wasn't one of the original forerunners of the Gatwick Exprtess a set of modified units that did just that- uncoupled on the way Down to Bogor at Gatwick, coupled back to the front of an Up service for the way back, with the airport unit having more luggage space? This before the Class 73/488/489 formations. Searching seems to show these as being converted 4VEPs known as 4VEG

It was. Infact this method of operation went back to pre VEG days with first generation units. Perhaps Gatwick airport needs more platforms for trains to wait in..

 

[D6975]

I like 442s, very comfortable ride.
If you're looking for a service they'd be suitable for then Waterloo-Weymouth springs to mind.
Hold on a min.....

 

[TrainBoy98]

It was. Infact this method of operation went back to pre VEG days with first generation units. Perhaps Gatwick airport needs more platforms for trains to wait in..

Don't suppose the two theyre building currently would be for this purpose?

 

[D365]

I like 442s, very comfortable ride.
If you're looking for a service they'd be suitable for then Waterloo-Weymouth springs to mind.
Hold on a min.....

Part of the route (Basingstoke to Bournemouth and beyond) will be converted from DC to AC. A 442 won't be able to handle that :/[

 

[yorksrob]

Don't suppose the two theyre building currently would be for this purpose?

Depending on how long it takes, I‘m guessing they would prove ideal for such a purpose.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Depending on how long it takes, I‘m guessing they would prove ideal for such a purpose.

Work seems to be progressing quite quickly up there, I go past ever two weeks and they seem to have made a bit of progress each time; sleepers are laid at each end, some with track laid (IIRC), ballast is down everywhere, and the initial platform seems to be in shape. Hopefully done by the end of the year at the latest.

 

[yorksrob]

Work seems to be progressing quite quickly up there, I go past ever two weeks and they seem to have made a bit of progress each time; sleepers are laid at each end, some with track laid (IIRC), ballast is down everywhere, and the initial platform seems to be in shape. Hopefully done by the end of the year at the latest.

Thats good news. Go back to dedicated portions for the Gatwick passengers and maybe they could use the 442‘s for some proper expresses.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Wide suburban doors, 5/6 coaches. Gangways so can be connected during peaks. The two new platforms coulds be dedicated ones for GatEx.

 

[GatwickDepress]

According to the Gatwick Express website, the new platform (7) is to enable platforms 5 and 6 to be dedicated to Gatwick Express services. At the moment they depart from 1 and 2, which as they're on the opposite side to the Quarry Lines, changing this would likely help pathing and timekeeping when there's delays, etc.

Will all other services running on the Quarry line use platform 7 for down services and platform 4 for up?

 

[TrainBoy98]

According to the Gatwick Express website, the new platform (7) is to enable platforms 5 and 6 to be dedicated to Gatwick Express services. At the moment they depart from 1 and 2, which as they're on the opposite side to the Quarry Lines, changing this would likely help pathing and timekeeping when there's delays, etc.

Will all other down services running the Quarry line will use platform 7 and up services platform 4?

Even better.

 

[BestWestern]

There's no reason why it has to be 377's as they could use the class 700 design with a differently spec-ed interior.

Please, let's apply common sense and just stick with Electrostars! If they must order something totally different and presumably incompatible for Thameslink then so be it, but let's hope they can at least try and keep some form of common stock policy in place and order the same as what they already have for Southern! Having a dozen different types of traction on the fleet does nobody any favours.

 

[Class377/5]

Please, let's apply common sense and just stick with Electrostars! If they must order something totally different and presumably incompatible for Thameslink then so be it, but let's hope they can at least try and keep some form of common stock policy in place and order the same as what they already have for Southern! Having a dozen different types of traction on the fleet does nobody any favours.

Er but your post ignores the fact there will be the to main fleets anyway. Once the class 700 come then TSGN (as Southern will be gone by then) will have 377, 442, 455 & 700 (ie less classes of trains than now) on the DC routes. What I suggested is actually keeping meets comparable not what you suggested.

So common sense says either you stick with Bombardier or Siemens.

Seeing as Thameslink services will be the flagship trains why not have the stock doing Gatwick Express? However may be you get. Electrostar for Victoria and Desiro City for London Bridge that makes the most sense.

 

[tbtc]

Since the route through Gatwick is going to be full of 377s (and 377 equivalents) and there's probably little prospect of them going back to the Bournemouth line, is there anything on South Eastern's "express" services where the numbers (24x 5 car) would work?

(i.e. not the "High Speed" St Pancras stuff, just the 375 operated stuff to places like Hastings)

 

[GatwickDepress]

Since the route through Gatwick is going to be full of 377s (and 377 equivalents) and there's probably little prospect of them going back to the Bournemouth line, is there anything on South Eastern's "express" services where the numbers (24x 5 car) would work?

(i.e. not the "High Speed" St Pancras stuff, just the 375 operated stuff to places like Hastings)

I cannot see any reason why the 442s couldn't work Charing Cross to Hastings diagrams, if the 375s were converted for AC and sent up north or something.
Commuters would likely complain about having newer units replaced with older stock, but the capacity of an average 442 unit is better suited for busy commuter routes like the Hastings line.

Could a 442 comfortably adhere to these timings?

I wouldn't say no to 442s at Hastings though. :P