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Citylink Fares Differential

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Deepgreen

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I and a friend took the Citylink 916 bus/coach route from Bridge of Orchy to Glen Coe ski area last week. The jouney takes about 12 minutes, and we were charged £13.30 each for the single fare! Thinking this was steep, we checked their web site a little later and discovered that the fare, if booked more than two days ahead, is £6.20! Their web site does state that advance booking can give savings, but they talk of 30-40%, not the 50+% this was. The fares differential information is also quite hard to discover on the site, so I imagine most people who pay the driver as a short-notice decision in their plans are unaware of the vast premium for doing so. Having contacted them they confirm the fare charged was right, although even the driver was shocked at the cost!
 
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overthewater

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I and a friend took the Citylink 916 bus/coach route from Bridge of Orchy to Glen Coe ski area last week. The jouney takes about 12 minutes, and we were charged £13.30 each for the single fare! Thinking this was steep, we checked their web site a little later and discovered that the fare, if booked more than two days ahead, is £6.20! Their web site does state that advance booking can give savings, but they talk of 30-40%, not the 50+% this was. The fares differential information is also quite hard to discover on the site, so I imagine most people who pay the driver as a short-notice decision in their plans are unaware of the vast premium for doing so. Having contacted them they confirm the fare charged was right, although even the driver was shocked at the cost!

Unfortunley the on broad fare is used to calculate the reimbursement rate for the Scottish Concessionary travel scheme, thus to get thier money back the single fares are much higher. I believe the reimbursement rate getting CUT again in April..


Ember talked about this problem last may: https://www.ember.to/news/

22 May 2024

Fare Update
Since launch in 2020, our goal has been to provide the best possible experience for travelling between towns and cities. That included having affordable, fair and easy-to-understand fares.
In particular, we chose to avoid complex yield management systems which vary ticket prices based on how far in advance you book and how busy a service is. These algorithms can boost short-term revenue but reduce trust – it’s hard to expect people to leave their car at home when public transport penalises them for changing their travel plans or travelling on a busy day.
We’ve also stayed away from short-term, too-good-to-be-true promotions and ensured we maintain our ticket prices at a sustainable level – that means making small increases when our underlying costs increase so that we can keep running high-quality, reliable services.
In line with that approach, on Thursday 23 May 2024 we will be increasing our prices. For tickets booked online, the increase will be small – around 4% reflecting underlying inflation since our last update.

Changes to Onboard Fares​

We’re also making more fundamental changes to the pricing on our tickets sold onboard, with much larger increases. Bear with us, because the reason for this is a little complicated.
In Scotland, a large proportion of the population – people over 60, under 22 or those with disabilities – are eligible for free bus travel. You get given a card for this which you tap as you get on board a bus. This tap allows the bus operator to claim back money for the journey from the government.
The tricky bit is for the government to decide how much to pay the operator.
One option would be that the government sets the price they are willing to pay based on the route but that doesn’t work too well. It requires the government to monitor the right price for every possible route in the country. If they get it wrong, they may cause an operator to withdraw services because it’s not viable.
To avoid this, the government instead chooses to pay back operators a percentage of their regular adult single fare. This percentage varies between passenger types but for 60+ travellers it’s 55%. The idea of paying less than a full adult fare is that it’s supposed to leave operators no better or worse off due to the scheme, taking account of the fact that the scheme encourages more people to travel by bus and not all adults would otherwise buy the adult single fare.
This system means that two operators who compete on a route may get entirely different reimbursements for an identical journey, depending on their regular adult single fare. There’s a logic behind this. If one operator charges adults more, they’re probably justifying it by offering a better service (otherwise adults wouldn’t travel with them), and hence it’s reasonable for the government to reimburse them based on that higher fare.
But what if most adults don’t actually pay the regular adult single fare? At that point, the operator can just increase their regular adult single fare to get paid more by the government for concession travellers, without putting off their fare-paying passengers.
It turns out this isn’t a hypothetical. This is how the market functions today.
For example:
  • Many operators offer significant discounts to adults who buy return tickets or daily/weekly passes.
  • Some operators, particularly those running long-distance routes, sell a huge proportion of their tickets online at drastically discounted rates compared to the regular adult single fare charged onboard.
The more an operator does one of the above, the more they get paid for concessionary travel without having to increase the price that most of their regular travellers pay – a win for the operator but a loss for the taxpayer.
We saw these loopholes from the day we launched Ember and flagged them up in the hope they’d get addressed. But we also took a conscious decision not to optimise our pricing to exploit them, instead offering simple pricing where a return is just two one-way tickets and on-board fares only incur a small fixed premium compared to online fares.
The result has been that Ember is currently paid significantly less for each concession traveller compared to direct competitors running on the same route. Consider a single trip from Dundee to Edinburgh. The other operator running a comparable service to Ember is Citylink.
  • Ember: The standard onboard fare is £10.50. Ember receives £5.78 if a 60+ concession pass holder chooses to travel with them.
  • Citylink: The standard onboard fare is £22.30. Citylink receives £12.27 if a 60+ concession pass holder chooses to travel with them.
However, with both Citylink and Ember very few people pay the standard onboard fare – instead the vast majority book online (for Ember, about 98% of fare-paying passengers book online).
Ember’s online fare is currently £8.30 (prior to tomorrow's small increase). With Citylink, there are lots of ways to book online at completely different prices. For example, it’s easy to book for £7.10 on almost every service tomorrow (as of 22 May).
The trick is that Citylink has set their onboard fare so they are earning far more money from concessions, without having to charge fare-paying adults any more.
We believe this system is fundamentally flawed. It represents poor value for money for the government and means we are not operating on a level playing field with the competition. No matter how much focus we put on optimising our costs to deliver better value for money, Citylink will not feel the competitive pressure because they are being paid so much more for taking each concession card holder. It’s a broken market.
To address this, we’ve also decided to update our pricing from 23 May so we’re no longer operating at such a disadvantage. As such, onboard fares will be increasing much more. The price changes will vary based on the exact journey but take Dundee to Edinburgh as an example:
  • Current onboard fare is £10.50
  • New onboard fare will be £19.90
We know that the onboard fare increase will not affect 99% of passengers and for the remaining 1%, we will support them with their booking through our live chat available from 7 am to 9 pm every day of the week. However, it will remain possible to purchase an onboard fare at every one of our stops including those that are pre-booked only (if you call us we can request the bus stops there).
We don’t love making this change. We’d be happy to revert it when the system is fixed and a level playing field is restored. And we have a practical suggestion for fixing the system – pay operators based on the average adult fare actually charged, not the theoretical onboard single fare. This resolves all of the issues identified, whilst not requiring the government to set fares on every route across the country.
In the meantime, we will continue to have simple fixed pricing for all of our journeys. It will cost the same to book 10 days ahead or just 10 minutes ahead. We will continue to offer fully flexible tickets, allowing unlimited changes for free. We will still allow passengers to cancel tickets for a full refund, even when they just miss a bus by a few minutes. We will also continue to provide refunds for any journey that is delayed by more than 30 minutes with our zero-click refund process.
 

Buzby

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It’s really not much different from the rail equivalent - buy in advance and you save, turn up and go and you pay dearly. The Ember link explains the calculations but only for the reasoning behind being better reimbursed for concession travellers. Citylink OTOH need to be profitable, so even short hops can be eye-wateringly expensive should you not book via the website.

I try not to use Citylink wherever possible, on a trip from Glasgow to Oban, the driver rejected over 18 potential passengers at intermediate stops due to no booking (as the vacant seats would be occupied at later stops). It’s quite distressing for all concerned and that’s before you get to the ticket price!
 

185

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My word those fares are horrific. In 2001, when NX operated a 383 over the border from Carter Bar up to Edinburgh (via Jed, Mel & Gal) the average local fares in the manual were from £1.95 to £11.50ish, issued in the paper ticket book. Those nonsense fares above are truly shocking and the Scottish government should accept this is nothing less than total failure.
 

Buzby

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Scottish government should accept this is nothing less than total failure.
How do you work that one out? These are private companies and free to set their own pricing. I know to book in advance, why should my taxes pay for those who don’t?
 

185

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How do you work that one out? These are private companies and free to set their own pricing ... why should my taxes pay for those who don’t?
Google Maps, 11.2 miles. £13.30 per person for 11.2miles and you don't see something seriously wrong?

The fact is, a hire car would cost, per mile, under a tenth that cost. No-one should ever complain about rail fares again.
 

Porty

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It’s really not much different from the rail equivalent - buy in advance and you save, turn up and go and you pay dearly. The Ember link explains the calculations but only for the reasoning behind being better reimbursed for concession travellers. Citylink OTOH need to be profitable, so even short hops can be eye-wateringly expensive should you not book via the website.

I try not to use Citylink wherever possible, on a trip from Glasgow to Oban, the driver rejected over 18 potential passengers at intermediate stops due to no booking (as the vacant seats would be occupied at later stops). It’s quite distressing for all concerned and that’s before you get to the ticket price!
Yes, I've seen the same thing happen at intermediate stops, seemingly with tourists and overseas visitors. I really think that Citylink and the tourist industry should publicise that it's a very good idea to book in advance, even for short hops. Even a few hours ahead of time. I think many would do this as I would expect most people are not casual walk ups but have planned a journey in advance and are probably quite happy to book if they thought it was necessary.
 

Doctor Fegg

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How do you work that one out? These are private companies and free to set their own pricing. I know to book in advance, why should my taxes pay for those who don’t?
Because an accessible public transport system that caters for everyone, not just the time-rich, is a social good and relieves the externalities of private car travel.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, I've seen the same thing happen at intermediate stops, seemingly with tourists and overseas visitors. I really think that Citylink and the tourist industry should publicise that it's a very good idea to book in advance, even for short hops. Even a few hours ahead of time. I think many would do this as I would expect most people are not casual walk ups but have planned a journey in advance and are probably quite happy to book if they thought it was necessary.

Citylink in the rural bits of Scotland is a very odd hybrid - the uninitiated would just see a local bus service, but really it's half-coach half-bus, with advance booking being the norm and journeys often filling up due to the lack of standing being permitted. This is probably a pragmatic approach to an unusual set of use-cases and operational constraints, but I can entirely see how it might catch people out. In similar parts of Wales Trawscymru is just a traditional walk-up bus service with standing permitted and vehicles of a far lower standard.

Does Citylink receive any subsidy?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Because an accessible public transport system that caters for everyone, not just the time-rich, is a social good and relieves the externalities of private car travel.

One could certainly argue for Scotland to have a redesigned combined rail, bus and ferry network under one ticketing scheme etc (which is the way Wales appears to be heading) - but that's not where we are, unfortunately.
 

Buzby

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Google Maps, 11.2 miles. £13.30 per person for 11.2miles and you don't see something seriously wrong?
Actually, I don’t. Just look at the Heathrow Express - I chose never to use it. Why should Citylink be any different?

Because an accessible public transport system that caters for everyone, not just the time-rich, is a social good and relieves the externalities of private car travel.
And who funds this? Social good is an admirable ideal until it comes to the ‘who pays’ bit. Since the costs can be reduced by various means the higher cost Isa customer choice.
 

N1

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Does Citylink receive any subsidy?
Yes, most services are registered local bus services so receive all the subsidy associated with this, Network Support Grant, concessionary fare reimbursement (i.e. free travel for 60+, disabled an under 22). They charge a £1 fee for these to book in advance. Interestingly, services like M90 Edinburgh to Inverness is only registered between Edinburgh and Perth, but they will still only charge a £1 for concessions between Edinburgh and Inverness (and also Perth to Inverness). Not sure how that works, if they are just taking the hit on that.

As above, ridiculous single fares are driven by concessionary fare reimbursement method, and are not consigned to just Citylink or Ember. Ask for a single on a McGill's bus for example and you might get a bit of a shock, but returns and day tickets are much more inline with market expectations.

All this showing that the Scottish Government is paying for free travel on Intercity Coaches that compete with ScotRail services, where concessionary passholders still have to pay...
 

overthewater

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All this showing that the Scottish Government is paying for free travel on Intercity Coaches that compete with ScotRail services, where concessionary passholders still have to pay...

Only way to solve this would be to stop the pass holders traveling on the "flyer" services Ie Saltire network.
 

Bletchleyite

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Only way to solve this would be to stop the pass holders traveling on the "flyer" services Ie Saltire network.

I thought it was only ENCTS that requires the route to be a registered local bus service, whereas in Scotland all bus and coach services were within scope regardless of whether they were registered local bus services or not?
 

Buzby

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but they will still only charge a £1 for concessions between Edinburgh and Inverness (and also Perth to Inverness). Not sure how that works, if they are just taking the hit on that.
What do you mean ‘only’? They not raking any hit as It’s all profit. Anyone boarding at the start point shouldn’t bother as it will be rare if there’s no room (unless an event is on). As for the £1 this covers both elements if a Return is bought, so 50p a pop. As Ember offer free reservations - I travel with them.
 

N1

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What do you mean ‘only’? They not raking any hit as It’s all profit. Anyone boarding at the start point shouldn’t bother as it will be rare if there’s no room (unless an event is on). As for the £1 this covers both elements if a Return is bought, so 50p a pop. As Ember offer free reservations - I travel with them.
I forgot that they would get concessionary fare reimbursement on all sections, not just the registered section. I forget the rules around pre-booking and concessionary passholders, was something like some seats have to be kept free for walk-up tickets, or a certain number of seats ring-fenced for concessionary travel?
 

Sussexwatch

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I'm surprised the driver didn't just say £13.60 is complete nonsense and given them both a free ride for 12 minutes. The likelihood of a revenue check in the Highlands must be pretty remote. Then the passengers would have gone away with a positive impression of Citylink instead of a negative one.
 

overthewater

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ereas in Scotland all bus and coach services were within scope regardless of whether they were registered local bus services or not?

It's because a number of these Express routes act as local bus routes especially in the highlands etc. In fact Citylink is the main operator between Dundee and Perth. Even before the X7 come along and disappeared.
 

Deepgreen

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I'm surprised the driver didn't just say £13.60 is complete nonsense and given them both a free ride for 12 minutes. The likelihood of a revenue check in the Highlands must be pretty remote. Then the passengers would have gone away with a positive impression of Citylink instead of a negative one.
That would have been nice! She actually looked pretty aghast when the fare popped up on her screen, and said, essentially, it's a lottery! As I mentioned, their web site does not make this huge fares differential at all obvious, and if hiking in this remote area with no signal, you can't check anyway if plans need to change. The 53% differential is higher than I have ever encountered anywhere else, and far exceeds the "30-40%" they state in the small print (which is VERY high anyway). For any sort of local service, this is outrageous behaviour in my view.
 

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I'm surprised the driver didn't just say £13.60 is complete nonsense and given them both a free ride for 12 minutes.
I'm glad you put this because for a moment there, with the responses above I thought it was only me that considered £13.60 for 11.2 miles to be a mugging.

On Ryanair miles, I'd be in Tenerife by now for that amount.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm glad you put this because for a moment there, with the responses above I thought it was only me that considered £13.60 for 11.2 miles to be a mugging.

It's a bit ridiculous, isn't it? The other day I was getting miffed at Wolverton to Bletchley (about 10 miles) having broken seven quid (£3 capped on the bus, but I didn't have time for that).
 

Deerfold

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I'm glad you put this because for a moment there, with the responses above I thought it was only me that considered £13.60 for 11.2 miles to be a mugging.

On Ryanair miles, I'd be in Tenerife by now for that amount.
Not if you turned up at the airport and bought a ticket just before departure.
 

Buzby

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Or if you also took Heathrow Express from Paddington (14miles for £25) - so where’s the issue? You pay what want for the service used. I find it incredible people will not research and turn it to their advantage, whilst blaming anyone but themselves for the ‘issue’.
 

Chrism20

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How do you work that one out? These are private companies and free to set their own pricing. I know to book in advance, why should my taxes pay for those who don’t?

IMO your taxes are paying for those that pay nothing which is fair enough as they are entitled to the pass, however Citylink are inflating the fare deliberately to ensure they get even more of your taxes.

The fact the Scottish Government are allowing it to happen is where the failure is.
 

Buzby

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HEx is marketed as a premium service. Citylink very much isn't, it's a bus/coach service.
The fact the Scottish Government are allowing it to happen is where the failure is.
Since they neither own nor run the services you’re complaining about, saying they ‘allow’ it is quite a stretch. If Citylink are gaming the system to their advantage then (and only then) should ScotGov explore ways of dissuading the practice. As for HEx being a premium service, up here I’ve seen no publicity stating this, but since most of my journey’s require my presence further east, I use the Piccadilly in preference.

We do seem to be straying from the OP’s complaint - my taxes are not paying for his higher contribution to Citylink’s coffers, no doubt the shareholders welcome it, but expecting a ‘normal’ fare for ANY transport service will leave you out of pocket… especially turn up an go. Since it has worked this way on planes and trains for some time why are buses such a surprise?
 

Chrism20

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Since they neither own nor run the services you’re complaining about, saying they ‘allow’ it is quite a stretch. If Citylink are gaming the system to their advantage then (and only then) should ScotGov explore ways of dissuading the practice. As for HEx being a premium service, up here I’ve seen no publicity stating this, but since most of my journey’s require my presence further east, I use the Piccadilly in preference.

We do seem to be straying from the OP’s complaint - my taxes are not paying for his higher contribution to Citylink’s coffers, no doubt the shareholders welcome it, but expecting a ‘normal’ fare for ANY transport service will leave you out of pocket… especially turn up an go. Since it has worked this way on planes and trains for some time why are buses such a surprise?

Correct they neither own nor run the service but they provide the cash.

Citylinks behaviour is why the OP encountered such a high walk on fare. If the Scottish Government didn't base the payment to the operator in the way they do it is probably highly likely the walk on fare would be more realistic.

Your taxes are paying a higher amount to the operator because they have set the OPs fare at a ridiculously high level to maximise the amount of your taxes they can get out of the Scottish Government.
 

Stan Drews

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Correct they neither own nor run the service but they provide the cash.

Citylinks behaviour is why the OP encountered such a high walk on fare. If the Scottish Government didn't base the payment to the operator in the way they do it is probably highly likely the walk on fare would be more realistic.

Your taxes are paying a higher amount to the operator because they have set the OPs fare at a ridiculously high level to maximise the amount of your taxes they can get out of the Scottish Government.
The reimbursement rates are supposed to be aligned in such a way that the operator is “no better, no worse off” for participating in the scheme. The rates have reduced several times since being initially introduced, which often means the adult single fares just increase exponentially to compensate.
 

Buzby

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Your taxes are paying a higher amount to the operator because they have set the OPs fare at a ridiculously high level
Which they have made a commercial decision to do so. I don’t believe the OP is an OAP (or non resident OAP) so that’s a different argument.

The law of diminishing returns comes into play and I doubt it will continue but attributing blame to ScotGov is pervers.
 
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