City Thameslink OHLE

[ole man]

I have been recently told that the wiring form Farringdon to City Thameslink will never be made live.

It has the lowest wire height in the whole of the UK, and this the reason why it is causing the circuit breakers to trip.

The electrical clearance from what i measured is only 100mm at some places, the lowest wire height recorded was 3890mm, that is over nearly 300mm lower than usual

 

[asylumxl]

I have been recently told that the wiring form Farringdon to City Thameslink will never be made live.

Not even to help clear the line? Seems rather wasteful if so.

 

[Class377/5]

I have been recently told that the wiring form Farringdon to City Thameslink will never be made live.

It has the lowest wire height in the whole of the UK, and this the reason why it is causing the circuit breakers to trip.

The electrical clearance from what i measured is only 100mm at some places, the lowest wire height recorded was 3890mm, that is over nearly 300mm lower than usual

That's partly incorrect.

Currently the southbound is live and has been since December 2009. I was there when the first train to use the OHLE was used to terminate a train there (there's a AC only crossover north of the station.

The northbound is currently not switched on because of Networkers still needing access to Smithfield sidings. As they are 3rd only units the low OHLE could earth with any Networker (tripping the breakers as described above) it so it's switched off for now.

Current plan is for it to go live once the new Thameslink stock has arrived as Networkers (and all DC only stock) will be banned from Blackfriars north. It's situation is also the simlar at the south end as City is actually more U shaped. It's this highs at each end which makes the OHLE a lot closer than normal.

 

[ole man]

The OLE at City Thameslink is not live, as i am working on it all this week on nights, it is perm earthed

 

[Class377/5]

The OLE at City Thameslink is not live, as i am working on it all this week on nights, it is perm earthed

I found out today it's been switched off. Do you know when?

Funny thing is the sign up saying it had gone live went down last week or so, guess it was connected.

 

[ole man]

It was earthed just after it was installed due to problems with it always tripping out.
It hasn't been registered properly anyway, if you look closely at the north end of City Thameslink you can see where its been left, any train going down there now with the pan up would bring it all down

 

[Class377/5]

It was earthed just after it was installed due to problems with it always tripping out.
It hasn't been registered properly anyway, if you look closely at the north end of City Thameslink you can see where its been left, any train going down there now with the pan up would bring it all down

I can tell you I've seen atleast one unit with pan up. It was 377 with shoes frozen to the body and could not lower then to get DC traction. In ran into City where I terminated it and it went back north using route D.

However this wasn't long after it was installed and went live. So possible it was one of the few units to use it before it was switched off.

A faulty 377 has brought down the wires north of City (southbound) before. Wonder if this damaged it?

 

[Bald Rick]

It will be used. Northbound trains will pan up at City, southbound will pan down at Farringdon. This gives a get out in both directions if the changeover fails - i.e. forward to next station under original power, tip out and back from whence it came.

And there is lower wire height at Maryland on the GE - at least in the summer - which is being fixed in the next few weeks.

 

[Class377/5]

Can confirm that the OHLE is live at City as a train used AC power at it this morning on the southbound platform to reverse.

 

[westcoaster]

It will be used. Northbound trains will pan up at City, southbound will pan down at Farringdon. This gives a get out in both directions if the changeover fails - i.e. forward to next station under original power, tip out and back from whence it came.

And there is lower wire height at Maryland on the GE - at least in the summer - which is being fixed in the next few weeks.

Incorrect change over will always be at farringdon, this has been confirmed to us on numerous occasions. Also the ohle is only live southbound between farringdon and city, this also includes the new crossover in snow hill tunnel, have done this move my self while rescuing a failed unit at farringdon. Quite strange having the dual voltage buzzer going of in city platform.

 

[Class377/5]

Incorrect change over will always be at farringdon, this has been confirmed to us on numerous occasions. Also the ohle is only live southbound between farringdon and city, this also includes the new crossover in snow hill tunnel, have done this move my self while rescuing a failed unit at farringdon. Quite strange having the dual voltage buzzer going of in city platform.

Just a simple replacement for Moorgate. Has proven very useful on a few occasions tho!

Doesn't help the Core as much as Moorgate did tho. Shame they never took it as far as originally looked at or least Elephant to clear the Core.

 

[ole man]

If a electric train has used City Thameslink then i want details and times, as both lines have a BTET on them and should not be used

 

[westcoaster]

Just a simple replacement for Moorgate. Has proven very useful on a few occasions tho!

Doesn't help the Core as much as Moorgate did tho. Shame they never took it as far as originally looked at or least Elephant to clear the Core.

Once phase 3 is finished the core will be fully bi directional running on both lines and crossings, so hopefully scoot around a failure should be easy enough, plus POSA's go live soon to combat the dreaded signal failure.

 

[swt_passenger]

Incorrect change over will always be at farringdon, this has been confirmed to us on numerous occasions...

With respect, the northbound situation is temporary until March 2012, (that date may change I expect), according to a current network change notice, which describes the reasons for the current situation:

"It is proposed that the OHLE between City Thameslink and Farringdon should not be fully energised until March 2012, as this is when the bay platforms at Blackfriars become available again. Until this time trains will continue to changeover from DC to AC at Farringdon as they do currently. Should any services experience problems, then these will reverse and cross over in Snow Hill tunnel, and return south.
Following the reinstatement of the bay platforms (an equivalent turnback facility) at Blackfriars in March 2012, works will be undertaken to remove the permanent earth, the in-line section insulator and adjust the OHLE to its design height, thus allowing north bound services to undertake the DC to AC change over at City Thameslink.
This will need to be covered by a further Network Change Notification at that time."

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...gs/ncg12009tlp001- smithfield sidings ncn.pdf

Reading that whole document it seems that ultimately, northbound changeover WILL be at City. It will all have been a bit pointless installing all that overhead, and all the complex switchgear at Ludgate Cellars otherwise.

Also, if AC changeover isn't initially attempted at City, 8 car trains that fail the changeover will be unable to use the Smithfield sidings as a bolthole, which remains one of the fallback options AFAICT.

 

[westcoaster]

If a electric train has used City Thameslink then i want details and times, as both lines have a BTET on them and should not be used

Mine was about 4 months ago, what does BTET mean.

 

[Class377/5]

If a electric train has used City Thameslink then i want details and times, as both lines have a BTET on them and should not be used

Can PM you a head code if you want but as far as the operations side knows its live and it is working.

Once phase 3 is finished the core will be fully bi directional running on both lines and crossings, so hopefully scoot around a failure should be easy enough, plus POSA's go live soon to combat the dreaded signal failure.

POSA? Yeah, let's hope phase 3 doesn't follow phase 2's example when introduced.

With respect, the northbound situation is temporary until March 2012, (that date may change I expect), according to a current network change notice, which describes the reasons for the current situation:

Reading that whole document it seems that ultimately, northbound changeover WILL be at City. It will all have been a bit pointless installing all that overhead, and all the complex switchgear at Ludgate Cellars otherwise.

Also, if AC changeover isn't initially attempted at City, 8 car trains that fail the changeover will be unable to use the Smithfield sidings as a bolthole, which remains one of the fallback options AFAICT.

Ultimately it's pointless anyway as all those nice 12 cars, it seems, won't be allows to use Smithfield anyway so it's loses a lot of flexability anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ultimately it's pointless anyway as all those nice 12 cars, it seems, won't be allows to use Smithfield anyway so it's loses a lot of flexability anyway.

It isn't really pointless at all, firstly because you'll still have a reasonable proportion of 8 car trains, (especially offpeak when it's 10 out of 18 tph), but secondly, and far more important for passenger congestion, ie for safety purposes, if you have to detrain a 12 car, there is far more room to do it at City than at Farringdon.

This explanation, which is in another T/L document (that I can't find online at the moment) emphasises this platform capacity aspect, to the extent that southbound services failing to change to DC at Farringdon would also be detrained at City T/L, specifically because the station is better able to handle the tip outs...

 

[Smoggy]

Mine was about 4 months ago, what does BTET mean.

BTET means 'Blocked To Electric Traffic'

 

[transmanche]

This explanation, which is in another T/L document (that I can't find online at the moment) emphasises this platform capacity aspect, to the extent that southbound services failing to change to DC at Farringdon would also be detrained at City T/L, specifically because the station is better able to handle the tip outs...

And that's a very good point. I was surprised by the amount of gap between train and platform on the extended platform at Farringdon. With the combination of curve, gap, difference in height and the tendency of the train to lean away from the platform... it can be quite a leap to get off a 319 there.

 

[1978NWUK]

If a electric train has used City Thameslink then i want details and times, as both lines have a BTET on them and should not be used

Sounds like your Form G got chucked in the bin!

 

[Tin Rocket]

or form b or c even.

 

[nr_signaller]

Mine was about 4 months ago, what does BTET mean.

BTET means 'Blocked To Electric Traffic'

Thought it was 'blocked to electric traction'?

 

[Class377/5]

It isn't really pointless at all, firstly because you'll still have a reasonable proportion of 8 car trains, (especially offpeak when it's 10 out of 18 tph), but secondly, and far more important for passenger congestion, ie for safety purposes, if you have to detrain a 12 car, there is far more room to do it at City than at Farringdon.

This explanation, which is in another T/L document (that I can't find online at the moment) emphasises this platform capacity aspect, to the extent that southbound services failing to change to DC at Farringdon would also be detrained at City T/L, specifically because the station is better able to handle the tip outs...

I'd argue the station can handle the tip outs but can't provide the same ability to re route passenger as, say, Farringdon with ready available routes. Tho that does depend on where you want to go.

As for platform capacity, as someone whose worked both station I am fully aware of the abilities of either station. However real life passengers don't always react logically.

But I'd always prefer a tip out at City. It's generally all round easier especially when you hit the new 18 tph off peak timetable.

As bi direction working in the Core is a pain in the arse, especially in peak.

 

[ole man]

It is Blocked to Electric Traction.

So i'm under the impression that FCC and NWR dont not talk, the OHLE is clearly not installed to design, in some places not even registered.
The forms we fill in obviously are a waste of time then, won't be saying that if the wire comes down, with Thameslinks track record won't be long

 

[Class377/5]

It is Blocked to Electric Traction.

So i'm under the impression that FCC and NWR dont not talk, the OHLE is clearly not installed to design, in some places not even registered.
The forms we fill in obviously are a waste of time then, won't be saying that if the wire comes down, with Thameslinks track record won't be long

Surely it's a case of NR not talking within itself if it's live but not wired up properly as you state?

 

[ole man]

Go and see for yourself, the only thing stopping it from having a rip down is the slow speed that they run through.
I clearly stated that the OHLE is not fit for the passage of electric traction, i've covered myself in this blame cultured world.
I will sort it out in morning, i need to look at design and will make some enquiries

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd argue the station can handle the tip outs but can't provide the same ability to re route passenger as, say, Farringdon with ready available routes. Tho that does depend on where you want to go.

Surely the idea here is only to deal with a single train's failure. So in principle (assuming a northbound failure) the whole train's worth of passengers disembark and get held at City, before you put them back onto one or more of the next trains to continue the journey to where ever they were going? A small subset of passengers will probably be bound for the Farringdon area but will realise their destination is walkable so they'll depart the station.

The real practical advantage is that you avoid the northbound platform at Farringdon. Despite the space now provided at the south end of the station, about 8 car lengths of the existing platform are pretty much substandard. If a fair number of passengers are waiting there and expecting to get on as well, it will be easier all round for the defective train to just reverse there and not open its doors at all.

 

[Class377/5]

Surely the idea here is only to deal with a single train's failure. So in principle (assuming a northbound failure) the whole train's worth of passengers disembark and get held at City, before you put them back onto one or more of the next trains to continue the journey to where ever they were going? A small subset of passengers will probably be bound for the Farringdon area but will realise their destination is walkable so they'll depart the station.

The real practical advantage is that you avoid the northbound platform at Farringdon. Despite the space now provided at the south end of the station, about 8 car lengths of the existing platform are pretty much substandard. If a fair number of passengers are waiting there and expecting to get on as well, it will be easier all round for the defective train to just reverse there and not open its doors at all.

Southbound is what I was ideally thinking of but southbound it would be a bigger issue as post 2018 you get a lot of people waiting for some services that will be only every 30mins and you create crowds. See City currently when one of the Rochester's or Ashford runs late and it's bad. Future off peak will be busier trains wise than today's peak.

Northbound your right it's less of an issue especially outside peak. Most people will travel on the next service, especially with the more limited GN services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Go and see for yourself, the only thing stopping it from having a rip down is the slow speed that they run through.
I clearly stated that the OHLE is not fit for the passage of electric traction, i've covered myself in this blame cultured world.
I will sort it out in morning, i need to look at design and will make some enquiries

Had a good look today and it looked fine. Although I'm not an OLE engineer.

 

[Edvid]

Now that Networkers are (I presume*) banned north of Blackfriars entirely, what is the current status of the OHLE at City Thameslink?

[* Judging by the new sign at the north end of platform 2]