Cities with duplicated bus numbers

[Bletchleyite]

X often does mean limited stop, but in reality it allows also for a long route - the Oxford-Cambridge X5 probably runs through several places that have their own 5s, certainly MK, and I've never heard of people confusing it in that way.

 

[tbtc]

Nottingham City Transport have a logical approach to suffixes which they used to publicise on their website but I don't think they now do. "B" is for terminating Before the usual terminus, "C" is for Continuing beyond the usual terminus and "X" is for some other variation.

Dundee (Tayside) used to have a few quirks like that.

The 28 and 29 both started at Douglas and ran westbound to Lochee, where they had separate termini. But eastbound all buses showed 26, since the route from (central) Lochee, where the two routes joined, was the same.

I can't remember a difference between the 20 and 22 (a linear route from Downfield to Ninewells), other than one ran in one direction and the other ran in the other direction - presumably to avoid confusion in the city centre?

There were separate numbers for services that terminated in the city centre (on routes that were otherwise Cross-City). I think that the 30 and 35 were the "short" versions of the 17?

Edinburgh (Lothian) used to be pretty organised - I don't remember any prefixes or suffixes - most services were numbered under sixty- services in the sixties were tendered (IIRC?) - services in the seventies were rush hour express versions (e.g. the "fast" version of the 44 would be the 74, rather than the "X"44) - services in the eighties were day-long express services (e.g. the 86 was the fast version of the 26 but ran throughout the daytime too).

It's all changed in Edinburgh - so that the "express" versions of the 26 are now the X26 - just like it would be in any other city - other routes have (or have had) an "A" version

 

[Jordan Adam]

X often does mean limited stop, but in reality it allows also for a long route - the Oxford-Cambridge X5 probably runs through several places that have their own 5s, certainly MK, and I've never heard of people confusing it in that way.

In the case of the X17 here it's not limited stop or a "longer" route in any way. Personally i think it's because Stagecoach want to go up against First's 11 and the X series number gives the illusion that their service is faster, but in reality it's not.

 

[SCH117X]

The 28 and 29 both started at Douglas and ran westbound to Lochee, where they had separate termini. But eastbound all buses showed 26, since the route from (central) Lochee, where the two routes joined, was the same.

Nottingham City Transport tried a similar number system when they first tried cross city service back in late 70s. It did not go down well as people were confused by having a number of differently numbered buses into the City but needing a completely different numbered (one route number only) bus to get home

 

[transmanche]

Sorry but this is too easy a stick to beat GNE with. One was a service going to Throckley. A big white bus, with Stagecoach on with clear destinations. The other was a giant pink Vyking with the Angel on. Clear destinations...again. Even at a time when GNE took branding seriously.

Despite what GNE think, most people disregard the branding and look at the route number. Bearing in mind the operators' inability to keep branded vehicles on the correct routes, that's not really surprising.

Heck, GNE now even try to make a thing of branded buses being used on alternative routes by calling it 'Sunday Funday', where (amongst others) you'll see the 21 Angel branded buses used on the 14.

Take some responsibility passengers. Look at at the destination, check the timetable at the stop (again Eldon Sq to Haymarket confusion doesn’t exist)

I've lost count of the number of times I've redirected people between the two adjacent bus stations, after being asked questions like 'Does this bus go to Middlesbrough/Blyth?' when they're stood at the 'wrong' X9 bus stop. Most people just look for the number, especially if they're told to 'Get the X9'.

There's really no reason to justify having duplicate numbers - it's just daft!

 

[507021]

There are two 14s and 61s in Liverpool.

Arriva and Stagecoach jointly operate the 14 to Croxteth.
Halton Transport operates the 14 to Widnes.

Arriva operates the 61 between Bootle and Aigburth.
Halton Transport operates the 61 to Runcorn.

 

[Red Onion]

Indeed night services use to use 9xx series numbers. But back then First's night services were just numbered 901 - 905 & 920. The night version of the 17 to Dyce was numbered 904.

First Aberdeen were the first to change their night route numbers, so their N17 was the first. On top of this their 62 predates the Stagecoach 62. Many residents in the Westhill area now want Stagecoach to renumber the X17 to the 47 to make it less confusing, certainly i'd agree with them. When Stagecoach got rid of the 3 digit numbers on core services it was meant to make it easier but in reality it's made it pretty confusing.

Westhill services used to be the 215, 216 & 217
215/217: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill (215 and 217 took slightly different routes in Westhill)
216: Aberdeen - Lang Stracht - Westhill.
I much prefer that route system as the numbers are not confusing and the actual level of service was far better split.

Another example of where this has failed is the 107,117 & X7 which until recently were the X6, 7, 7A, 7B, 7C, 7S & X7. The 7C has been axed so there's less variations, but still pretty confusing!

It looks like Aberdeen are to see further cuts as the 220 is being axed, leaving large parts of Westhill with no bus service!

I agree, the service numbering gets confusing enough without the duplication! The 7 series is baffling if you don't use them frequently and I wonder how much of a barrier it is to passenger growth. If I'm honest, the numbering should be regulated by the local authority but will it ever happen...

I remember the old westhill routes well. Even the old 415 that went out to Alford. My old man fell asleep drunk on the last service and woke up there. Mother was not happy!

 

[Jordan Adam]

Deleted

 

[Jordan Adam]

I agree, the service numbering gets confusing enough without the duplication! The 7 series is baffling if you don't use them frequently and I wonder how much of a barrier it is to passenger growth. If I'm honest, the numbering should be regulated by the local authority but will it ever happen...

I remember the old westhill routes well. Even the old 415 that went out to Alford. My old man fell asleep drunk on the last service and woke up there. Mother was not happy!

Spoiler: I've put my reply in a spoiler to save space...

Ahh yes i forgot to mention the 415. The 415 ran in the evenings in place of the 215/217, the night service used the 916 number. I'm looking at the 2006 timetables now and the full rundown of services service the Westhill area are as follows.

210: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Elrick - Echt - Torphins - Aboyne - Ballater
214: Westhill Town Service
215: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Hilltop - Elrick - Kirkton Of Skene - Dunecht - Alford
216: Aberdeen - Lang Stracht - Westhill - Elrick (1 bus per day extends to Dunecht via Echt, and another to Skene Primary School)
217: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Hilltop - Echt - Dunecht - Alford
218: Westhill - Inverurie
415: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Elrick - Kirkton Of Skene - Dunecht - Alford (Evenings only)
916: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Hilltop - Elrick (Night Service)

The 415 was in short a 215 that didn't serve Hilltop. The 215/217 each run hourly with the 216 being half hourly to provide a 15 minute frequency.

The best service Westhill had was from from 2015 - 2016. They had 3 routes and the whole area was covered.
16: Westhill & Elrick Town service (connects Hilltop to the X17)
X17: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Elrick (Every 10 minutes)
X18: Aberdeen - Lang Stracht - Westhill - Elrick - Kirkton Of Skene - Dunecht - Alford (Every 20 minutes, Elrick - Alford is hourly)

Since then they've seen quite a high amount of cuts. The 16 has been axed, X17 has had it's frequency reduced and X18 replaced, as such the X17 can no longer cope with capacity and can even fill a Decker with a capacity of over 90 offpeak.

The current line up looks like this. (As of 6th May 2018)
X17: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Elrick (Every 15 minutes)
218: Aberdeen - Lang Stracht - Westhill - Elrick - Kirkton Of Skene - Dunecht - Alford (Every 3 hours)

Hiltop now no longer have a bus at all and the rest of the network has seen mass cuts!

I can easily upload some timetables to One drive and send you a link over DM's if you'd like. This offer goes to anyone.

 

[Red Onion]

Spoiler: I've put my reply in a spoiler to save space...

Ahh yes i forgot to mention the 415. The 415 ran in the evenings in place of the 215/217, the night service used the 916 number. I'm looking at the 2006 timetables now and the full rundown of services service the Westhill area are as follows.

210: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Elrick - Echt - Torphins - Aboyne - Ballater
214: Westhill Town Service
215: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Hilltop - Elrick - Kirkton Of Skene - Dunecht - Alford
216: Aberdeen - Lang Stracht - Westhill - Elrick (1 bus per day extends to Dunecht via Echt, and another to Skene Primary School)
217: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Hilltop - Echt - Dunecht - Alford
218: Westhill - Inverurie
415: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Elrick - Kirkton Of Skene - Dunecht - Alford (Evenings only)
916: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Hilltop - Elrick (Night Service)

The 415 was in short a 215 that didn't serve Hilltop. The 215/217 each run hourly with the 216 being half hourly to provide a 15 minute frequency.

The best service Westhill had was from from 2015 - 2016. They had 3 routes and the whole area was covered.
16: Westhill & Elrick Town service (connects Hilltop to the X17)
X17: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Elrick (Every 10 minutes)
X18: Aberdeen - Lang Stracht - Westhill - Elrick - Kirkton Of Skene - Dunecht - Alford (Every 20 minutes, Elrick - Alford is hourly)

Since then they've seen quite a high amount of cuts. The 16 has been axed, X17 has had it's frequency reduced and X18 replaced, as such the X17 can no longer cope with capacity and can even fill a Decker with a capacity of over 90 offpeak.

The current line up looks like this. (As of 6th May 2018)
X17: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill - Elrick (Every 15 minutes)
218: Aberdeen - Lang Stracht - Westhill - Elrick - Kirkton Of Skene - Dunecht - Alford (Every 3 hours)

Hiltop now no longer have a bus at all and the rest of the network has seen mass cuts!

I can easily upload some timetables to One drive and send you a link over DM's if you'd like. This offer goes to anyone.

That would be perfect, thank you, it’ll save the thread going off topic! Please don’t rush though

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[daodao]

X often does mean limited stop, but in reality it allows also for a long route - the Oxford-Cambridge X5 probably runs through several places that have their own 5s, certainly MK, and I've never heard of people confusing it in that way.

In Manchester, "x" used to be widely used as a suffix to denote extras that were short workings on the main route, with the indicator blinds for the last digit able to display 1, 1x, 2, 2x, ..... etc. I haven't seen it used for years.

When SELNEC was created in 1969, all bus numbers in Greater M/c were renumbered in a logical sequence with no duplicate numbers, but since deregulation this structured approach has partly been lost. Transport commissioners should have the power to enforce this within specified areas, and hopefully TfGM will be able to bring this back in future.

Cheshire East now has very few bus routes, but there are now 2 routes numbered 130, with essentially a common route from Macclesfield and then deviating at Wilmslow to 2 different destinations and run by different companies. This should not be permitted, with the 2nd licensee not allowed to use an already allocated number.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've lost count of the number of times I've redirected people between the two adjacent bus stations, after being asked questions like 'Does this bus go to Middlesbrough/Blyth?' when they're stood at the 'wrong' X9 bus stop. Most people just look for the number, especially if they're told to 'Get the X9'.

At least, thankfully and not before time, the stands are lettered continuously between the two bus stations.

I've always been of the opinion that the route number is the brand. It makes no sense to duplicate another route and cause the confusion.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Of course, having two services with the same number at the same stop is asking for trouble.

However, is this issue being overstated?

After all, how do people cope with cross city services? Are Stagecoach having to repatriate hundreds of people from Lemington who actually wanted Wallsend?

I was in Marlborough high street the other day and the X5 (Swindon to Salisbury) arrived. Because of the road network, buses on this through route call at the same stop.

Now there was confusion but, here’s the rub. 6 pass brandishing pensioners (cumulative age nudging 400) wanting Swindon chose not to read the destination on the front stating Pewsey for Salisbury. Same on the near side display. Nor when an exiting passenger told them it was for Salisbury not Swindon when they asked her. Unconvinced, they still asked the driver “just to be certain“. In short, you will always have people who fail with even the most comprehensive information!

Granted, we shouldn’t make it a trial to overcome. However, there really isn’t an issue of having a 1 in Newcastle and another in Sunderland. The only people it bothers are enthusiasts and they’re not the important market!

 

[carlberry]

Of course, having two services with the same number at the same stop is asking for trouble.

However, is this issue being overstated?

After all, how do people cope with cross city services? Are Stagecoach having to repatriate hundreds of people from Lemington who actually wanted Wallsend?

I was in Marlborough high street the other day and the X5 (Swindon to Salisbury) arrived. Because of the road network, buses on this through route call at the same stop.

Now there was confusion but, here’s the rub. 6 pass brandishing pensioners (cumulative age nudging 400) wanting Swindon chose not to read the destination on the front stating Pewsey for Salisbury. Same on the near side display. Nor when an exiting passenger told them it was for Salisbury not Swindon when they asked her. Unconvinced, they still asked the driver “just to be certain“. In short, you will always have people who fail with even the most comprehensive information!

This does remind me of a personal experience (many centuries ago) of standing in Chippenham bus station wanting to catch a bus on the Swindon-Bath service. As is often the case the two directions manage to turn up at the same time on adjacent stands. I approach the bus on the Bath stand and ask if it's going to Bath and get the sarky answer 'what does it say on the front'. Swindon I point out, like the one on the next stand. Cue slightly apologetic driver finally deciding to correct the blind (only slightly, this was Bristol Omnibus!).

 

[Tetchytyke]

After all, how do people cope with cross city services? Are Stagecoach having to repatriate hundreds of people from Lemington who actually wanted Wallsend?

Sticking with route 22, there is part of the route where it does a one-way loop around a business park in Lemington, meaning buses in both directions serve the same stop. It caused a lot of confusion when the route first started but, obviously, the regular commuters soon learned. However, whenever a bus driver forgot to change the destination blind all hell broke loose, with people missing buses or alternatively getting on the wrong one.

However, there really isn’t an issue of having a 1 in Newcastle and another in Sunderland. The only people it bothers are enthusiasts and they’re not the important market!

Of course there isn't. I'm not even sure a peak-only X9 from Haymarket to Cobalt and a all-day X9 from Eldon Square to Middlesbrough is that much of an issue.

I'm just surprised that bus companies spend all that time and effort building up their brand, only to bump up against the bus company next door building the same brand for another service.

Transdev Harrogate's constant re-numbering of the 770/70/7/Godknows is the most extreme example of what I'm thinking.

 

[Typhoon]

Of course, having two services with the same number at the same stop is asking for trouble.

However, is this issue being overstated?

In your quoted example, I am assuming they are locals so with their knowledge of the geography of the area should be able to work out that this particular bus was not for them. I think the problem is with visitors who are not aware that three companies have all decided to call their service route 1.

And, of course, within a county (which Tyne and Wear is) duplication is likely and finding examples is just an academic exercise.

Now there was confusion but, here’s the rub. 6 pass brandishing pensioners (cumulative age nudging 400) wanting Swindon chose not to read the destination on the front stating Pewsey for Salisbury.

As someone who would qualify for this group, I am not certain how to take that. I have tried a few dates and I reckon they must have been born after 5th October 1953, so the cumulative ages of any group of pass wielding pensioners must exceed 387 years - nudging 400. Which shows that I have time on my hands but I do read the destinations on buses and have the confidence to ask drivers. However, in your example, the driver will (hopefully) say something like 'It'll be along in a minute, just wait here'; if it is a different company the response is more likely to be 'Dunno, mate, sorry.'​

 

[SCH117X]

Now there was confusion but, here’s the rub. 6 pass brandishing pensioners (cumulative age nudging 400) wanting Swindon chose not to read the destination on the front stating Pewsey for Salisbury. Same on the near side display. Nor when an exiting passenger told them it was for Salisbury not Swindon when they asked her. Unconvinced, they still asked the driver “just to be certain“. In short, you will always have people who fail with even the most comprehensive information!

I can understand doubting the display the amount of buses that run round with the destination still set for the opposite end of the route. Really ought to be a system whereby the display is linked to the ticket machine so that it automatically updates when the driver resets the machine for the new service.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I think the most incomprehensible example of multiple routes using the same number occurred in the Luton area in, IIRC, the nineties.. Luton & District were operating the following services:

31 Luton-Bury Park- L&D Hospital-Dunstable with an extension every 30 mins to Langdale Estate
69 Luton-non stop- L&D Hospital- Dunstable- Hockliffe- Leighton Buzzard
70 Luton- non stop- L&D Hospital- Dunstable- Stanbridge- Leighton Buzzard

In their infinite wisdom they renumbered the 69 and 70 to, yep you got it, 31! so that was 4 different routings and 3 different termini all using the same number. To complicate matters even more the last couple of journeys each day to LB went via Bury Park!

 

[43055]

Derby has had 2 4s, 5s and 7s since about early 2015 when Arriva decided to renumber all there services with new numbers which are already used on the Unibus routes run by Notts and Derby. Surly it would of been simpler to have them numbered 3, 10 and 13 because they are not used to avoid confusion.

 

[Hophead]

If towns are acceptable, then Littlehampton has two services numbered 700. Not only that, but they are both operated by the same operator, which also applies identical Coastliner branding to both! Every 10 minutes, a bus arrives from Brighton and continues to the local suburb of Wick. Meanwhile, every 20 minutes another 700 heads off to Chichester and Portsmouth. There seems to be no bus which continues from one part to the other (or, if it does, the timetable is keeping quiet on the matter).

Obviously, these two 700s have their origins in a through service all the way along the coast from Brighton to Portsmouth and it may well suit Stagecoach to unify the branding and present the two 700s as one service, but it would appeal to part of my tidy nature to have specified a new route number for one section or the other.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

If towns are acceptable, then Littlehampton has two services numbered 700. Not only that, but they are both operated by the same operator, which also applies identical Coastliner branding to both! Every 10 minutes, a bus arrives from Brighton and continues to the local suburb of Wick. Meanwhile, every 20 minutes another 700 heads off to Chichester and Portsmouth. There seems to be no bus which continues from one part to the other (or, if it does, the timetable is keeping quiet on the matter).

Obviously, these two 700s have their origins in a through service all the way along the coast from Brighton to Portsmouth and it may well suit Stagecoach to unify the branding and present the two 700s as one service, but it would appeal to part of my tidy nature to have specified a new route number for one section or the other.

are the through ticketed ? is it a 50 km scam service ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

is it a 50 km scam service ?

No, each section is entirely separate and independent because they simply couldn't keep time when it ran through (both actually through and fake-change-through)

 

[Colly405]

Bath has two routes 37.
First's 37 from Bristol via Bitton.
Coachstyle's 37 from Malmesbury via Acton Turville (one return journey on Wednesdays)

And a bit of a tenuous one, but Bristol technically currently has two 506s.
They are both run by Bristol Community Transport (CT Plus).
The long-standing 506 has been split in two at the City Centre, pending the withdrawal of one half when metrobus starts. Until then, both halves are known as the 506, the soon-to-be-withdrawn one being a free shuttle. In both directions, one stops where the other starts.

And if you do include prefix/suffixes then in Bristol we have the 3, 3a, 3b, 3c, 3x, m3 (from 27/5), x3, x3a, a3 and ag3.
The oddity here is that the 3a, 3b, 3c and 3x (Wessex) are in absolutely no way related to the 3 (First), as they are the four variations of Wessex's own erstwhile 3 which was closest in route to First's 309/310 before they became the 78/79 (which are now becoming the T2 and massively re-routed and expressified T1...

 

[PeterC]

Our local problem is the number of variations on a single route combined with drivers changing the destination but not the route number.

 

[Mwanesh]

Sheffield used to have a number, as the "out of town" services shared numbers with "city" services (e.g. the Chesterfield/ East Midlands/ Stagecoach 43/ 44/ 50/ 53/ 55/ 56 from Derbyshire shared numbers with the SYT/ Mainline/ First local services in the city).

Whilst it's maybe understandable to have multiple services with a single digit number (e.g. the "1"s in Chester that the OP refers to), we've also had some historic duplication of unusual numbers (e.g. the 143 at Meadowhall, where the "Sheffield" network and the "Rotherham" network overlapped).

However things have been rationalised (which, I understand is a posh way of saying "many services withdrawn"), so that there's only one number I can think of where two different services use the same number at the same place - First and Stagecoach both run a 72 at Sheffield Interchange - both services run along the Parkway (the First service towards Meadowhall, the Stagecoach one towards Chesterfield - whilst they don't share any other stops, they are both relatively recent numbers as the operators have renumbered tranches of services - First run/ran the 70/71/72/73/74 in Brinsworth, Stagecoach run/ran the 70/71/72/74/77 from Chesterfield towards Brimington - so it's maybe harder to renumber one service in isolation). There's a third "72" in Sheffield, but this doesn't serve the city centre (the "Yorkshire Tiger" aka Arriva service from Chapletown to Manvers in Barnsley).



That reminds me - I know someone who boarded a LRT/ Lothian 4A instead of a 44 (both running from Princes Street towards Willowbrae Rad) back in the '90s due to similar confusion



Good shout - whilst a lot of services around St Andrews have traditionally started with a nine, it seems daft to have two (different) ninety twos in such a small place.

You have just reminded me about Sheffield 43 before it was changed.I was doing the 2300 Chesterfied 43 when these 2 girls walked on .I asked which stop do you want ladies they must have been new to the area.I got told to shut up and mind my own business.I apologised and drove off .When i got to Elder Way in Chesterfield they came down and said driver where are we .I said Chesterfield and they went mental i said ladies thats why I asked you where you were going and one of them said she thought i was joking when i asked.I left them at the taxi office in town.

 

[Statto]

Talking about number/letters variations, Liverpool Corpy developed numbers, that routes finished with a letter mostly Cs or Ds , C was Pier Head via Church Street, D was Pier Head via Dale Street, there was variations, As & sometimes Bs was route variation of the main route, E was short route mostly to the garage, Merseyside PTE carried on with that number system until D-Reg. Merseyside PTE never changed the number system like other PTEs did like Greater Manchester, Wigan area have numbers in the 6xx series, Merseyside still have local number system, it's only Arriva routes that have changed numbers

 

[Dai Corner]

I've just remembered that Bristol Omnibus used to use a C suffix when a journey on a route which was normally cross-city terminated in the city centre.

 

[Deerfold]

Nottingham City Transport have a logical approach to suffixes which they used to publicise on their website but I don't think they now do. "B" is for terminating Before the usual terminus, "C" is for Continuing beyond the usual terminus and "X" is for some other variation.

When I was there in the 90s, C was used for Cross City routes terminating in the City, B for routes terminating early elsewhere.

There was also rarely D for Duplicate.

 

[Deerfold]

To my mind the use of duplicated numbers within a county isn't a problem but routes that touch each other anywhere or go into the same city/town centre should be forced to use different identification. I include in that the practice of Trent Barton to use a brand name like "indigo" but no other distinguishing feature other than the destination, for a route that has a common core but fans out to multiple termini.

One of the benefits of indigo (and previously the R5) is it's replaced all the other numbers these routes used to have.

The included duplicates of 1, 3, 10, 14, 54, 506 as well as the unduplicated 3C, 310, R5, R5B, R5C, R5X.

NCT no longer run their FastLine 506.