Cities with duplicated bus numbers

[overthewater]

St Andrews one is a weird one because Stagecoach had the number first, then First council brought in a new service 92. Im surprised there did not use 96 as that is going spare and did operate up via those areas in the past.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Weren't those just because of the joint United/Scottish Newcastle-Edinburgh services? I guess they must have fitted into the Scottish company's numbering system, as they duplicated the route numbers of PTE services in the South Shields area.

Someone will know better than me but think that Eastern shared United’s series with 4** in Northumberland e.g. 470/3 Alnwick to Wooler, 464 Wooler to Berwick, 463 Berwick to Kelso.

Think the East Lothian routes were 1** so maybe suited both firms systems?

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[MrTurbostar170]

King's Lynn has numbers 1-6 duplicated. 2-5 are soon to be run by the same operator.

 

[transmanche]

I think the West Midlands is probably the most extreme example, because unlike almost everywhere else mentioned in this thread, the duplicated numbering in the West Midlands are all services operated by the same company, NXWM.

Oh, if you want to take a whole county rather than one town/city, then Tyne & Wear will give you a run for your money.

Stagecoach alone operates three versions of the 1, 3, 8, 10, 11, 12 and 18 - one in each of Newcastle, South Shields and Sunderland.

 

[oldman]

The Edinburgh-Dumfries service used to use three numbers - 100 via Moffat, 101 via Penicuik and Moffat, 102 via Thornhill. Then the 100 was changed to 101, supposedly to avoid clashing with the Airlink 100, so there is no way of telling which 101s go via Penicuik and which don't.

I was once asked by a visitor why the Airlink buses were not stopping at a bus stop with 100 on it, so they have replaced one possible confusion with another.

 

[edwin_m]

I guess councils don't have the power to refuse the use of a particular number by a deregulated operator, despite being responsible for upkeep of the stops including sticking the numbers on them.

To my mind the use of duplicated numbers within a county isn't a problem but routes that touch each other anywhere or go into the same city/town centre should be forced to use different identification. I include in that the practice of Trent Barton to use a brand name like "indigo" but no other distinguishing feature other than the destination, for a route that has a common core but fans out to multiple termini.

 

[bussnapperwm]

In Coventry you have the X1 which is the former 900 service to Birmingham along with the 1 which is a diamond service to University Hospital.

You've got in Birmingham the X3 which goes to the Hill Hook estate, yet the 3 goes to Yardley.

Also in Birmingham you have the 10/H which is run by igo, yet the X10 is run by NX and goes to Halesowen and Merry Hill, not Four Dwellings

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Liverpool has two 14's and two 61's (Arriva and Halton)

 

[Typhoon]

Oh, if you want to take a whole county rather than one town/city, then Tyne & Wear will give you a run for your money.

Stagecoach alone operates three versions of the 1, 3, 8, 10, 11, 12 and 18 - one in each of Newcastle, South Shields and Sunderland.

Most of those quoted, but admittedly not all, operate inside Birmingham. Not all into the city centre - but start at/ finish in suburbs of the city (Erdington, Great Barr, Hall Green, Kingstanding, Perry Barr, Sheldon). Additionally, with the risk of irritating, its inhabitants, Sutton Coldfield was absorbed into Birmingham over forty years ago!

However, it does seem to be a problem (for visitors at least) across many parts of the country.

 

[Cambus731]

Until recently there were two 1s in Rayleigh, Essex. The long established 1 from Southend to Rayleigh via Thundersley Kenneth Road. And the recently withdrawn Regal Busways 1 from Chelmsford to Canvey Island via Rayleigh.

 

[Busaholic]

Good shout - whilst a lot of services around St Andrews have traditionally started with a nine, it seems daft to have two (different) ninety twos in such a small place.

Isn't there a law that any new service in Manchester has to be numbered 192, perhaps in an attempt to make it popular, or is that just an impression that I get from afar?!

 

[Dentonian]

Isn't there a law that any new service in Manchester has to be numbered 192, perhaps in an attempt to make it popular, or is that just an impression that I get from afar?!

Sorry, that's gone a little bit over my head. Besides, Manchester (and more especially Greater Manchester) doesn't get new services, just withdrawals, reductions, fare hikes that TAS Partnership don't recognise (Buses mag May 2018 refers) and endless red lights, roadworks and unofficial stop closures.

 

[SCH117X]

Not a City, but Harrogate has two X6's. Transdevs is a fast single direction Mon-Fri peak only service to(am), from(pm) a business park formerly served by its 6.
Connexions Mon-Sat X6 is its variation of Transdevs all week 6, but which has another Mon-Sat version (X6a) which serves the business park that Transdevs X6 does (but which Connexions X6 does not). Potential confusion is limited due to Connexions only starting their services after the morning peak (buses enagaged on school services, and there are no School days excepted workings)

 

[Red Onion]

In Aberdeen there's 2 that i can think of.

First Aberdeens N17: CityCentre - Stoneywood/Dyce
Stagecoach NScotland N17: CityCentre - Westhill

First Aberdeen 62: Harlaw Academy - Auchinyell Bridge / Bridge Of Dee
Stagecoach NScotland 62: CityCentre - Ellon Park & Ride.

To make matters worse both N17s are night buses (as you'd expect) and they use the same stops in the city centre. Luckily outbound journeys are on opposite sides of the road though!

I'm sure that for many a year, Stagecoach's night services were all 9xx, as in the westhill service was 917. I used to live in westhill and still lament the withdrawal of 215 as the main route number but that's a whole other story!

 

[Busaholic]

Sorry, that's gone a little bit over my head. Besides, Manchester (and more especially Greater Manchester) doesn't get new services, just withdrawals, reductions, fare hikes that TAS Partnership don't recognise (Buses mag May 2018 refers) and endless red lights, roadworks and unofficial stop closures.

Other than fare hikes, sounds depressingly similar to London. Haven't got round to reading the article yet, but my sincere condolences to you and other bus users in GM.

 

[jkkne]

I remember when the GNE Pink Angel 22 operated, it used the same stop as the Stagecoach 22 on Grainger Street. Lunacy by GNE

Sorry but this is too easy a stick to beat GNE with.

One was a service going to Throckley. A big white bus, with Stagecoach on with clear destinations.

The other was a giant pink Vyking with the Angel on. Clear destinations...again. Even at a time when GNE took branding seriously.

To suggest it was confusing is misleading unless I’m unaware of an influx of bemused tourists hoping to visit Throckley and ending up 20 miles south in Durham?

Take some responsibility passengers. Look at at the destination, check the timetable at the stop (again Eldon Sq to Haymarket confusion doesn’t exist) and shocker...ask your driver, he’ll even ask one of the many freely available nexus staff at Haymarket and Eldon Square.

 

[Wolvercoter]

Oxford used to have two X3 routes. One was COMS Oxford to Abingdon express which still operates. The other was Stagecoach Oxford to Burford/Fulbrook. It ran in the late nineties I think.

Oxford also had two 100 routes. Oxford Tube was numbered 100, as was Oxford to Witney via Eynsham.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

depends how anal you want to be

Lincoln has two '5' Services

the Stagecoach 5 which is city BS to st Giles

and the Brylaine operated interconnect branded 5 Lincoln to Boston , although some will no doubt maintain that this is an IC% or some such ...

 

[TheWalrus]

In my (simplistic) mind, 1, 1A, X1, DB1, PR1 or any <letter(s)>1 are different route designations. If somebody is told to take a DB1 bus, is (s)he really likely to board an X1, or "plain" 1, instead?

Yes most likely!

 

[trainmania100]

Brighton and Hove use alphabet letters after number for a variation in the route
12 goes to Eastbourne
12a goes to Eastbourne via seaford back roads
12X is limited stop on certain days Eastbourne
13X limit stop Eastbourne certain days

5 patcham via high school
5a patcham via co op
5b hollingbury Asda

They're the only ones I can name off top of my head but nearly every number has a lettered variation within B&H

 

[edwin_m]

Sorry but this is too easy a stick to beat GNE with.

One was a service going to Throckley. A big white bus, with Stagecoach on with clear destinations.

The other was a giant pink Vyking with the Angel on. Clear destinations...again. Even at a time when GNE took branding seriously.

To suggest it was confusing is misleading unless I’m unaware of an influx of bemused tourists hoping to visit Throckley and ending up 20 miles south in Durham?

Take some responsibility passengers. Look at at the destination, check the timetable at the stop (again Eldon Sq to Haymarket confusion doesn’t exist) and shocker...ask your driver, he’ll even ask one of the many freely available nexus staff at Haymarket and Eldon Square.

Someone unfamiliar with the area might not even know there are duplicate routes, just know they have to catch the 22 and maybe just see one and board assuming it must be correct. In these days of route branding and all-over advertising it's sometimes not even easy to know who the operator is. With short workings and sometimes multiple branches of a route the final destination doesn't always mean anything to people using part of the route. And even if the driver is friendly (some aren't) people may feel self-conscious holding up the queue behind and the passengers already on board while they discuss the destination.

This isn't specific to the 22 but applies to duplicate bus services in general. Just more reasons why they aren't particularly user-friendly.

 

[carlberry]

Sorry but this is too easy a stick to beat GNE with.

One was a service going to Throckley. A big white bus, with Stagecoach on with clear destinations.

The other was a giant pink Vyking with the Angel on. Clear destinations...again. Even at a time when GNE took branding seriously.

To suggest it was confusing is misleading unless I’m unaware of an influx of bemused tourists hoping to visit Throckley and ending up 20 miles south in Durham?

Take some responsibility passengers. Look at at the destination, check the timetable at the stop (again Eldon Sq to Haymarket confusion doesn’t exist) and shocker...ask your driver, he’ll even ask one of the many freely available nexus staff at Haymarket and Eldon Square.

What a wonderful place Tyne and Wear must be where everything operates perfectly, every driver is perfect and every bus stop has comprehensive information and staff available! (I assume nobody uses any stops other then Haymarket and Eldon Square).
None of which explains why GNE decided to renumber the routes in the first place, or what you're supposed to do if the bus hasnt got a clear destination on it, or you're not going to the ultimate destination anyway, or you're not aware of the colour or owner of your bus, or your bus stop dosent have an up to date timetable, or you're using old publicity, or the bus driver dosent know where the other service runs from, or you don't have staff available because the office has closed or the bus station closed years ago. Everything like this just adds to the numerous reasons people stop using buses (or give up at the first hurdle). Oddly the department of transport have never felt the need to duplicate road numbers in the same way and then use the escure that you can always ask in a garage if you need to know which one to use.

 

[Typhoon]

Someone unfamiliar with the area might not even know there are duplicate routes, just know they have to catch the 22 and maybe just see one and board assuming it must be correct. In these days of route branding and all-over advertising it's sometimes not even easy to know who the operator is. With short workings and sometimes multiple branches of a route the final destination doesn't always mean anything to people using part of the route. And even if the driver is friendly (some aren't) people may feel self-conscious holding up the queue behind and the passengers already on board while they discuss the destination.

This isn't specific to the 22 but applies to duplicate bus services in general. Just more reasons why they aren't particularly user-friendly.

I'm afraid I must agree.
The destination is no help unless you are going there or you have some idea of the geography of the area. And it is not necessarily the operator's name that you want, it is the name (or brand) that the operator goes by in that area or for that route or group of routes.

I sometimes attended meetings in unfamiliar places (and I don't think I am unique in that). I would be sent instructions as to how to get there by public transport (limited parking, no expenses for taxis) which meant bus from the nearest station. These would give the bus number, the place to alight, the bus stop where you need to catch the bus and if you are lucky a map to this stop. Number is the most important. Operator's name is fairly pointless, often locals can't tell you that (they might say 'blue bus' or 'white bus', which is fine until a branded bus appears on the wrong route); most people can't tell, say, First's livery from that of Stagecoach without the name (not always obvious); and people get frustrated if they can't find the bus they want. Yes, they can ask but it assumes locals (even those waiting at bus stops) know. Even a friendly driver may not know the place you are going to ('This isn't my usual route' followed by 'do you mean ...' and, of course, you don't know). They might end up going in a taxi and avoiding buses in the future.

It could be said that people should be prepared, but not everybody knows of Traveline, Enquiry Offices are few and far between and not always clearly located (or open), TICs know about accommodation and events but not always hot on buses, maps never look the same on the ground.

Sorry about the diatribe but the route number is important!

 

[SCH117X]

Leeds now has two 7's due to Transdevs barking renumbering of its 71 service, itself a renumbering from 771 not long ago. The duplicate for most of the route 70/770 having been withdrawn last weekend due to Connexions winning the NYCC tender for the alternative section. So from adjacent stops there is a First 7 north to Primley Park and a Transdev 7 east to Seacroft and then curving north east round to north north west to reach Wetherby and Harrogate. The 70 when it ran also duplicated a First service numerically but that also was withdrawn last weekend.

 

[Tetchytyke]

To suggest it was confusing is misleading unless I’m unaware of an influx of bemused tourists hoping to visit Throckley and ending up 20 miles south in Durham?

I lived in Newburn at the time, so the 22 was my bus home. And yes, most days there'd be someone looking increasingly bemused as we thundered along the Scotswood Road, finally twigging what had happened when we got to about Lemington. They wanted Low Fell, or Birtley. I can only assume it happened in reverse.

They used the exact same stop on Grainger Street. No bus station staff to ask.

The blame does lie with GNE on this one. The 22 used to be one arm of the 21/21A/21B set of routes.

For a lot of people, even people who live in the north east, the final destination of the bus is meaningless. Why would you know where "Throckley via Business Park" (as Stagecoach destinations said at the time...which business park, btw?) is if you live in Chester le Street?

 

[Hophead]

Brighton and Hove use alphabet letters after number for a variation in the route
12 goes to Eastbourne
12a goes to Eastbourne via seaford back roads
12X is limited stop on certain days Eastbourne
13X limit stop Eastbourne certain days

5 patcham via high school
5a patcham via co op
5b hollingbury Asda

They're the only ones I can name off top of my head but nearly every number has a lettered variation within B&H

There's plenty of B&H routes without suffix variations

Brighton and Hove use alphabet letters after number for a variation in the route
12 goes to Eastbourne
12a goes to Eastbourne via seaford back roads
12X is limited stop on certain days Eastbourne
13X limit stop Eastbourne certain days

5 patcham via high school
5a patcham via co op
5b hollingbury Asda

They're the only ones I can name off top of my head but nearly every number has a lettered variation within B&H

Suffix (or prefix) letters to denote route variations are a long-standing feature of bus operations and not what I think the OP was after.

The Brighton and Hove operating area is notable for the absence of route number duplication. While only a few other operators enter the area, they don't overlap numbers (and, in general, have not in recent years).

 

[Typhoon]

Suffix (or prefix) letters to denote route variations are a long-standing feature of bus operations and not what I think the OP was after.

True but not only that but they use suffixes on the 12 in the way that people understand they are used.
12 - basic route.
12A - A denoting slight variant on the 12.
12X - X denoting limited stop version of the 12.

(13X - route I wish I'd put down as scenic - with limited stops)

 

[edwin_m]

Nottingham City Transport have a logical approach to suffixes which they used to publicise on their website but I don't think they now do. "B" is for terminating Before the usual terminus, "C" is for Continuing beyond the usual terminus and "X" is for some other variation.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'm sure that for many a year, Stagecoach's night services were all 9xx, as in the westhill service was 917. I used to live in westhill and still lament the withdrawal of 215 as the main route number but that's a whole other story!

Indeed night services use to use 9xx series numbers. But back then First's night services were just numbered 901 - 905 & 920. The night version of the 17 to Dyce was numbered 904.

First Aberdeen were the first to change their night route numbers, so their N17 was the first. On top of this their 62 predates the Stagecoach 62. Many residents in the Westhill area now want Stagecoach to renumber the X17 to the 47 to make it less confusing, certainly i'd agree with them. When Stagecoach got rid of the 3 digit numbers on core services it was meant to make it easier but in reality it's made it pretty confusing.

Westhill services used to be the 215, 216 & 217
215/217: Aberdeen - Woodend - Westhill (215 and 217 took slightly different routes in Westhill)
216: Aberdeen - Lang Stracht - Westhill.
I much prefer that route system as the numbers are not confusing and the actual level of service was far better split.

Another example of where this has failed is the 107,117 & X7 which until recently were the X6, 7, 7A, 7B, 7C, 7S & X7. The 7C has been axed so there's less variations, but still pretty confusing!

It looks like Aberdeen are to see further cuts as the 220 is being axed, leaving large parts of Westhill with no bus service!