CIS message at Leeds: "This is a slow train"

[johntea]

I can see where Northern have tried to go with this but it seems a bit pointless!

Why can't they do what they do with other routes and maybe advertise the Sheffield stopping service at Leeds as a Chapeltown service instead?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see where Northern have tried to go with this but it seems a bit pointless!

Why can't they do what they do with other routes and maybe advertise the Sheffield stopping service at Leeds as a Chapeltown service instead?

Because it's misleading and confusing. Though I think I'd have used "local stopping service" like they do at Manc Picc.

We really need to get proper train categories back in the UK to solve this properly. Though TBH showing the arrival times is also a good solution (VT commissioned this at Euston I believe but it seems to now have spread to all the ATOS PIS systems), if you're happy with the arrival time, get on if you want.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Agreed, cannot stand the YRK LDS via HGT being advertised as Burley Park. Some of us prefer saving a couple of quid and a few, somewhat more rareiffied of us actually like Pacers!

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure its much slower than the Sheffield via Moorthorpe route.

 

[gallafent]

Because it's misleading and confusing.

Absolutely. A few years ago some colleagues got on a slow OXF-PAD service late in the evening since there was no faster way to get back to London by rail. It was advertised, though, as destination “Ealing Broadway”. Not knowing that this is GWR's idiotic way of indicating a stopping service, and that in fact its destination was Paddington, they disembarked at Ealing Broadway on the basis that the train would go no further, … and were rather annoyed to discover they could have stayed on the train to Paddington rather than transferring to another train (or tube) for a substantially slower journey into central London.

Lying about destinations is not a good way to indicate a stopping service pattern.

 

[cactustwirly]

Because it's misleading and confusing. Though I think I'd have used "local stopping service" like they do at Manc Picc.

We really need to get proper train categories back in the UK to solve this properly. Though TBH showing the arrival times is also a good solution (VT commissioned this at Euston I believe but it seems to now have spread to all the ATOS PIS systems), if you're happy with the arrival time, get on if you want.

No its not, if you wanted Sheffield/York whatever you wouldn't want to board the stopping train anyway.

In the Thames Valley this works to my advantage, since I can look at the departure summary board at Reading/Paddington to instantly identify which train I need, without faffing around hunting for arrival times.

 

[cactustwirly]

Absolutely. A few years ago some colleagues got on a slow OXF-PAD service late in the evening since there was no faster way to get back to London by rail. It was advertised, though, as destination “Ealing Broadway”. Not knowing that this is GWR's idiotic way of indicating a stopping service, and that in fact its destination was Paddington, they disembarked at Ealing Broadway on the basis that the train would go no further, … and were rather annoyed to discover they could have stayed on the train to Paddington rather than transferring to another train (or tube) for a substantially slower journey into central London.

Lying about destinations is not a good way to indicate a stopping service pattern.

In the evening these are advertised as 'London Paddington' if no faster alternative is available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No its not, if you wanted Sheffield/York whatever you wouldn't want to board the stopping train anyway.

In the Thames Valley this works to my advantage, since I can look at the departure summary board at Reading/Paddington to instantly identify which train I need, without faffing around hunting for arrival times.

"Next fastest train to X" boards are better for that purpose.

You'd think GWR would also realise as a commuter operation that many commuters *don't* take the fastest train on purpose. I rarely do, I take slower trains to increase the chance of a seat. Advertising MKC slows as "Tring" at Euston would, for example, just be silly.

 

[yorkie]

I think "local stopping service" is best, and this should be applied to the York to Sheffield trains via Castleford/Chapeltown as well as the Dearne Valley stopper, and York to Leeds via Harrogate.

Lying about destinations is not a good way to indicate a stopping service pattern.

The use of false destinations is covered in this thread: Trains advertised short of final destination e.g. to 'Ealing Broadway'

 

[GW43125]

Agreed, cannot stand the YRK LDS via HGT being advertised as Burley Park. Some of us prefer saving a couple of quid and a few, somewhat more rareiffied of us actually like Pacers!

Then the disappointment when a heavily non-compliant 150 turns up!

 

[cactustwirly]

"Next fastest train to X" boards are better for that purpose.

You'd think GWR would also realise as a commuter operation that many commuters *don't* take the fastest train on purpose. I rarely do, I take slower trains to increase the chance of a seat. Advertising MKC slows as "Tring" at Euston would, for example, just be silly.

I disagree, 30 minutes on a busy HST is better than an hour on a turbo.
In the case of the Thames valley the stoppers can be quite busy and won't necessarily increase the chances of a seat.
This is the reason why I elect for the fast services, or take a HST to Slough and change onto the stopper there after it has emptied out a bit.

 

[tbtc]

We really need to get proper train categories back in the UK to solve this properly

Sounds nice, but we don't have clearly defined types of train on every line (and we don't have the spare capacity to rip up the timetable and copy what they do in other countries).

Services aren't as binary as some enthusiasts would like.

For example, the xx:40 from Leeds to Sheffield is a fairly fast service (compared to others on the line) - it doesn't get overtaken between the two cities - it only has three intermediate stops - it takes under an hour.

The xx:06 takes the same time as the xx:40, it serves the same three intermediate stops. And it runs beyond Sheffield to Nottingham (so is arguably more "Inter-city", as it links more cities). BUT, it's overtaken by the xx:11 XC services from Leeds to Sheffield.

The xx:06 becomes the fast service from Barnsley to Sheffield (only one intermediate stop, compared to up to four stops on some services), but then it becomes the slowest service south of Sheffield (generally the only one to stop at Dronfield, for example).

Then there's the problem that a lot of services stop at stations that their TOC doesn't operate (whether Network Rail operated or operated by a competing TOC). So they may want to apply different categories?

Unless you want several different categories of services, which may confuse people a lot more?

Agreed, cannot stand the YRK LDS via HGT being advertised as Burley Park. Some of us prefer saving a couple of quid

The Harrogate services take around three times as long as the normal services (1h10 vs under 25m), so something needs to be done to differentiate them.

Anyone wanting to sit on a 142 for over an hour to save a pound or two shouldn't be getting too upset about that - the focus should be on the 95% of passengers going the normal/ fast route between the cities.

Absolutely. A few years ago some colleagues got on a slow OXF-PAD service late in the evening since there was no faster way to get back to London by rail. It was advertised, though, as destination “Ealing Broadway”. Not knowing that this is GWR's idiotic way of indicating a stopping service, and that in fact its destination was Paddington, they disembarked at Ealing Broadway on the basis that the train would go no further, … and were rather annoyed to discover they could have stayed on the train to Paddington rather than transferring to another train (or tube) for a substantially slower journey into central London

So even at Slough/ West Ealing (etc) the announcements were only for Ealing Broadway?

I think "local stopping service" is best, and this should be applied to the York to Sheffield trains via Castleford/Chapeltown as well as the Dearne Valley stopper, and York to Leeds via Harrogate

That sounds a sensible compromise. Works on the Hope Valley stoppers. But should we require consistency or allow some local discretion? Are Calder Valley services from Leeds to Manchester a "local stopping service" (since overtaken by TPE services through Huddersfield), or do we accept that they aren't competing for longer distance passengers?

 

[yorkie]

That sounds a sensible compromise. Works on the Hope Valley stoppers. But should we require consistency or allow some local discretion? Are Calder Valley services from Leeds to Manchester a "local stopping service" (since overtaken by TPE services through Huddersfield), or do we accept that they aren't competing for longer distance passengers?

I think their lack of differentiation goes back to the days of Manchester Victoria station only being served by Calder Valley stoppers.

But now there are fast trains between Victoria & Leeds via Huddersfield, the local stopping services via Hebden Bridge probably should be labelled as such too.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And given that a combination of various rangers and rovers as valid on Calder Valley trains as well as a couple of reasonably good splits then there are end to end users regularly so yes apply the local stopping designation here also.

At least by doing this its up to the passenger if they want to take 1h10 or 30 minutes or whatever and also as I say if restricted to an opperater or particular routing.

 

[Bungle965]

I can see where Northern have tried to go with this but it seems a bit pointless!

Why can't they do what they do with other routes and maybe advertise the Sheffield stopping service at Leeds as a Chapeltown service instead?

The Customer Information Screens at Leeds are run by Network Rail (as it is a Network Rail station) it is therefore their choice as to what descriptor they use for the train.
Sam

 

[Adam0984]

This came about as feedback from Northern train crew to a specific problem that the xx:33 stopper to Sheffield and xx:40 express go from the same platform most of the time so to highlight the difference northern got the slow and Express added to the screens as a trial and feedback has been sought from other train crew and some tweaks will occur I believe. Also what came about is the advertising of the xx:35 Brighouse as Huddersfield via Halifax to avoid confusion when the train pulls in with Huddersfield on the destination blind. Some of you may have noticed with the 07:05 Plymouth and Nottingham and the 16:40 Reading and Sheffield that the XC train now has "Northern Train Tickets Not Valid On This Service'

 

[Bletchleyite]

They need to be careful with that when it presumably means Northern Advance or Northern Only tickets. LM use a better wording.

 

[Adam0984]

The wording might not be exact but its words to that effect. But it's all trial and error to get something that works

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Following some feedback I gave Southeastern, they actually implemented two small changes at Bromley South, due to the number of people desiring a fast service to Victoria. Because the fasts and slows are both timetabled at the same times of XX05, XX20, XX35 and XX50, it wasn't easy to know which one was the fast and which was the slow from the Departure boards.

As a result, there is now an automatic remark on the fast services stating "This train is fast to Victoria". Additionally, the stopper services now also state "via Herne Hill" or "via Denmark Hill" depending on the route taken - a feature that was also originally absent when these screens were installed a few years ago.

I would like us to see other features such as ETA time in brackets, as seen now with other operators.

 

[yorksrob]

I think in the case of the Hallam stopper at Leeds, something saying "the xx:40 express to Sheffield will overtake this service" would be most meaningful for most of the day.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I threw this out on Facebook to a few non basher mates, ranging in age from 14 to 70 and with varying levels of train usage and the consensis was something like:
Platform XX for the xx : xx TOC Name Local Stopping Service to XX via Y and Z. Failing to denote this would make it obvious that it was a fast or most direct service and the question addressed above about any tickets not valid also came up.

 

[DarloRich]

I can see where Northern have tried to go with this but it seems a bit pointless!

Why can't they do what they do with other routes and maybe advertise the Sheffield stopping service at Leeds as a Chapeltown service instead?

i put a similar picture on my twitter and said Northern needed to go on a diversity and inclusion course - you cant call it a slow train these days


It is to make people for Wakey, Barnsley & Sheffiled get the faster, usually 158 powered, train that runs behind the stopper and overtakes while the chugger ( usually pacer powered) serves Cas Vagas. The guards on the pacer have often announced that "this is a slow trian to Sheffield. If you want to get there faster the XX:XX is the train directly behind us and will arrive at Sheffield before us."

 

[David Andrews]

Met couple on Cumbrian coast line who had jumped on first train they saw in Carlisle going to Lancaster so had 3h37m journey instead of around 50m on main line. Pointed them to change at Carnforth to get back to Skipton. They did enjoy the scenery but would have liked some refreshments on the train! Signs in Carlisle say Lancaster via Barrow.

 

[cuccir]

On the bus network, it's quite common to see a service advertised to one location, but with an indication that the same bus will form the forward service with no need to change (often with a thick black arrow in timetables).

On some of the examples on this thread, that might be an appropriate solution on the rail network: Preston to Carlisle via Barrow is an obvious one, which could be broken up into two services terminating/starting at Barrow with a 5-10 minute gap in Barrow. Anyone going to West Cumbria knows that they have to go to Barrow, and it could even be signed as 'Barrow (for Workington)' or some such on departure boards to illustrate that this is a through train, but not service.

Others could work with this as well; a few that come to mind could be Newcastle to Glasgow services (Newcastle to Kilmarnock and Kilmarnock to Glasgow, Glasgow to Hexham and Hexham to Newcastle) and Leeds - York (Leeds to Knaresbrough, Knaresbrough to Leeds, York to Horsforth, Horsforth to Leeds). Again, signs like Knaresbrough (for York) at interim stations should be clear enough for travellers...

This would work best in situations where a slower train goes by a different route; it would be less suitable to distinguish between stopping services/express services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the bus network, it's quite common to see a service advertised to one location, but with an indication that the same bus will form the forward service with no need to change (often with a thick black arrow in timetables).

That's for another reason - the need to "break up" UK domestic rules services under EU rules into shorter routes otherwise tachographs are mandatory. It is to be hoped that Brexit will repeal confusing nonsense like this, which was designed for a very different structure of bus services found in most of the rest of Europe compared with here.

But away from buses, the most I'd concede two is a two-line version using the "via" field like:

BARROW
then Lancaster

which on the summary screens could be shown as

BARROW
Continuing to Lancaster - local stopping service

or somesuch. It's the complete absence of information confirming the train does actually go to the final destination that is to me confusing, particularly absent the UK having and using train numbers.

We aren't however the only ones to do it - the Hamburg-Muenchen ICs used to be shown as something like:
IC mit Zuschlag
Bremen-Hannover
Hagen-Wuppertal
KOELN-KOBLENZ

with no hint of the final destination. Though back then DB didn't really do Advances and a routed ticket that way would have been pricey - now they do do Advances and ICs may be cheaper than ICEs that might have gone.

On some of the examples on this thread, that might be an appropriate solution on the rail network: Preston to Carlisle via Barrow is an obvious one, which could be broken up into two services terminating/starting at Barrow with a 5-10 minute gap in Barrow. Anyone going to West Cumbria knows that they have to go to Barrow, and it could even be signed as 'Barrow (for Workington)' or some such on departure boards to illustrate that this is a through train, but not service.

TBH my view of that route is that I would break the through service anyway. It would be best with an hourly, fully clockface service from Lancaster at least (ideally from Manchester Airport portion-worked with a Windermere) using bi-mode 319s, with the Furness line small stations as request stops on all trains, connecting onto a 156 for the Coast running at whatever interval is seen as sensible.

 

[gallafent]

In the evening these are advertised as 'London Paddington' if no faster alternative is available.

That's an improvement, but I maintain that misinformation is never the right way to manage this sort of thing. Just “fast”, “semi-fast”, “local”, “stopping”, “slow”, “whatever” (all depending on service patterns on the particular line), where the intuitive meaning is right, and there is actually a “deeper meaning” for those that want or need to know, would be good enough as a start. Even “overtaken” might be an interesting option — this is already indicated in online journey planners and in paper timetables, after all

Arrival times would be a good clear high-information option though: the lines “1107 to London Paddington (arr 1302)” and “1130 to London Paddington (arr 1227)” are pretty unambiguous, and not verbose. On more modern “white LED” displays such as those at Didcot Parkway, then green could be used to display the arrival time for for fast trains, amber for semi, and red for slow, too, assuming the drive electronics could handle it (surely — if not then very silly!) … or perhaps just use red for “overtaken”, or green for “fast”, etc., … many options once one has another dimension which is commonly understood to play with …

After all, if going to Paddington, you more likely care about when you get there, rather than what the instantaneous speed of the train will be at any intervening locations (including whether or not, and where, it stops! At Paddington a * is used to indicate a train which is “fast to Reading” as a shorthand — also useful. The “next fastest train to” lists are also handy. There's never any need to mislead passengers about the destination of the service.

 

[northwichcat]

Because it's misleading and confusing. Though I think I'd have used "local stopping service" like they do at Manc Picc.

Agreed. Whoever thought that Leeds to York via Harrogate trains should be advertised as to Poppleton at Leeds and to Burley Park at York was a dimwit. Visitors from outside of Yorkshire going to Harrogate or Headingley will never have heard of either Poppleton or Burley Park, while from timetables and journey planners they are expecting to see Leeds and York on the departure displays. One day last year I caught the first off-peak train towards Leeds via Harrogate from York - I've never seen so many confused passengers at a station with departure displays.

 

[DarloRich]

Agreed. Whoever thought that Leeds to York via Harrogate trains should be advertised as to Poppleton at Leeds and to Burley Park at York was a dimwit. Visitors from outside of Yorkshire going to Harrogate or Headingley will never have heard of either Poppleton or Burley Park, while from timetables and journey planners they are expecting to see Leeds and York on the departure displays. One day last year I caught the first off-peak train towards Leeds via Harrogate from York - I've never seen so many confused passengers at a station with departure displays.

strange - since they put "slow train" on the display the numbers of people rushing off the pacer at the last minute has reduced no end.

I bet the Burley Park destination also stops those confused tourists getting on a Leeds via Harrogate train without realising they could get there in half the time

 

[northwichcat]

I bet the Burley Park destination also stops those confused tourists getting on a Leeds via Harrogate train without realising they could get there in half the time

For Harrogate/Headingley all long distance passengers have to change at either Leeds or York. For Leeds/York there's often no need for a change - you can do Edinburgh/Newcastle to Leeds direct and Liverpool/Manchester to York direct.

Pre-Northern Rail in Huddersfield the local stoppers to Leeds were always advertised as the local Metro Train services to Leeds, with big posters on the concourse and on platform 8 saying passengers for Leeds should catch TPE services to York, Hull, Scarborough, Middlesbrough or Newcastle. What was wrong with that idea?

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

S – slow/stopper/suburban, stopping at all stations
C – commuter, outwards: first fast then stopper, inwards: first stopper then fast
SF –*stopper that skips a few stations
F –*fast train
X – express train or IC – Intercity
[HS – high speed train]
N –*night train

Maybe like this?