Circular tickets

[Ken H]

I have a desire to do some circular iteneries.

One is Harrogate - York - Leeds - Harrogate

Another is Clitheroe - Hellifield - Lancaster - Preston - Blackburn.

How does one find tickets for this? Are there pairs of stations which you can travel between either way?

Or is there a special type of ticket?

Not bothered where I change trains. Its a track bash!

 

[Llandudno]

I have a desire to do some circular iteneries.

One is Harrogate - York - Leeds - Harrogate

Another is Clitheroe - Hellifield - Lancaster - Preston - Blackburn.

How does one find tickets for this? Are there pairs of stations which you can travel between either way?

Or is there a special type of ticket?

Not bothered where I change trains. Its a track bash!

Off peak return Harrogate - Church Fenton £14.70 allows travel via York and/or Leeds plus break of journey en-route.

It’s possible that some of Northern’s advance singles may work out cheaper though.

 

[Watershed]

I have a desire to do some circular iteneries.

One is Harrogate - York - Leeds - Harrogate

Another is Clitheroe - Hellifield - Lancaster - Preston - Blackburn.

How does one find tickets for this? Are there pairs of stations which you can travel between either way?

Or is there a special type of ticket?

Not bothered where I change trains. Its a track bash!

There are some 'round robin' tickets, e.g. to allow you to take the Heart of Wales Line out to Swansea and the Marches Line back, but not for these particular journeys. There are rangers and rovers which would cover these journeys but they are likely to cost substantially more if you're just doing one circular journey.

So really I would just look for a ticket to somewhere around half-way through your journey. Ideally you want a ticket where there are two different fare routes and you can buy the cheaper route, then obtain a change of route excess for half the difference.

For the first journey I'd suggest buying a return from Harrogate to Church Fenton, which is valid both ways, although it's worth noting that there are some dates where bargain basement 50p Northern Advances are available (you'd have to split at York and Leeds to get these).

For the second journey, I'd buy an Off-Peak Day Return from Preston to Hellifield, route via Clitheroe (£12.50). Then obtain a change of route excess for the return portion to become via Carnforth (£2.65). You'd need another single from Preston to Blackburn (£6.50), so total cost £21.65.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Off peak return Harrogate - Church Fenton £14.70 allows travel via York and/or Leeds plus break of journey en-route.

Presume that would limit you to services that actually call at Church Fenton on the leg between York and Leeds (or vice-versa, depending on direction of travel).

 

[Watershed]

Presume that would limit you to services that actually call at Church Fenton on the leg between York and Leeds (or vice-versa, depending on direction of travel).

It's not explicitly clear that this is the case, as you aren't "splitting" per se, rather just using different portions of the same ticket. But I imagine you might encounter a certain degree of hassle if you did take a non-stop service.

 

[Ken H]

There are some 'round robin' tickets, e.g. to allow you to take the Heart of Wales Line out to Swansea and the Marches Line back, but not for these particular journeys. There are rangers and rovers which would cover these journeys but they are likely to cost substantially more if you're just doing one circular journey.

So really I would just look for a ticket to somewhere around half-way through your journey. Ideally you want a ticket where there are two different fare routes and you can buy the cheaper route, then obtain a change of route excess for half the difference.

For the first journey I'd suggest buying a return from Harrogate to Church Fenton, which is valid both ways, although it's worth noting that there are some dates where bargain basement 50p Northern Advances are available (you'd have to split at York and Leeds to get these).

For the second journey, I'd buy an Off-Peak Day Return from Preston to Hellifield, route via Clitheroe (£12.50). Then obtain a change of route excess for the return portion to become via Carnforth (£2.65). You'd need another single from Preston to Blackburn (£6.50), so total cost £21.65.

Sorry if i am being dumb but why do i need the Preston - Blackburn single?

 

[Watershed]

Sorry if i am being dumb but why do i need the Preston - Blackburn single?

Because the outward portion of a ticket expires once you start using the return portion. Once you reach Hellifield, your outward portion will have expired, so you can't go back to it to do Preston-Blackburn. Hence it would be cheaper to do this journey as Preston-Blackburn-Hellifield-Lancaster-Preston.

The reason why I suggest a ticket from Preston is that there is a cheap(ish) 'via Carnforth' ticket available from there, but not from further east. Otherwise you are limited to the much more expensive route 'Any Permitted' ticket for your return via Lancaster.

 

[Ken H]

Because the outward portion of a ticket expires once you start using the return portion. Once you reach Hellifield, your outward portion will have expired, so you can't go back to it to do Preston-Blackburn. Hence it would be cheaper to do this journey as Preston-Blackburn-Hellifield-Lancaster-Preston.

The reason why I suggest a ticket from Preston is that there is a cheap(ish) 'via Carnforth' ticket available from there, but not from further east. Otherwise you are limited to the much more expensive route 'Any Permitted' ticket for your return via Lancaster.

Should have made myself clearer. I would drive to an appropriate station. So starting preston isnt an issue.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It's not explicitly clear that this is the case, as you aren't "splitting" per se, rather just using different portions of the same ticket. But I imagine you might encounter a certain degree of hassle if you did take a non-stop service.

Interesting! It does seem counter-intuitive that a ticket to (or from) a particular station should still be valid on a train that passes through the station without stopping, if indeed that is the case.

 

[Watershed]

Interesting! It does seem counter-intuitive that a ticket to (or from) a particular station should still be valid on a train that passes through the station without stopping, if indeed that is the case.

I think there are arguments in either favour; but as stated, I would avoid it just because of the potential for hassle.

 

[m00036]

Interesting! It does seem counter-intuitive that a ticket to (or from) a particular station should still be valid on a train that passes through the station without stopping, if indeed that is the case.

In much the same way as split tickets are only valid if the train calls at the station, I can't see why there would be a different rule for using outbound and return portions of a ticket. The general rule is that you can only use one ticket for travel between two calling points on a train, the exception being when one of the tickets involved is a season ticket (or similar).

 

[Watershed]

In much the same way as split tickets are only valid if the train calls at the station, I can't see why there would be a different rule for using outbound and return portions of a ticket. The general rule is that you can only use one ticket for travel between two calling points on a train, the exception being when one of the tickets involved is a season ticket (or similar).

The newly introduced term "Call" is only referenced in condition 14 of the NRCoT, which is about using a combination of two or more tickets. And clearly it is the railway's position that outward and return portions are part of the same ticket. So there is nothing in the NRCoT which deals with this situation.

 

[pelli]

So there is nothing in the NRCoT which deals with this situation.

Then surely the default position should be that by common sense a leg of a ticket is valid only to board a train at the origin printed on the ticket and alight at the destination?

NRCoT clause 14.2 ("[...] you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use Call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another") grants you the right to stay on the train when changing tickets (rather than, say, having to exit the station barriers and re-enter) and also grants disruption protections like delay repay and rerouting, but the train must stop. Then clause 14.3 ("[...] if [...] then the train does not need to Call [...].") comes in to say that for certain combinations the train doesn't need to stop at all.

If you argue that 14.2 (and consequently also 14.3) doesn't apply to the out and return legs of a single ticket, then the fall-back ought to be the basic position that you are making two separate journeys so not only must the train stop at the printed destination, but you have no disruption protection and you might even have to alight and reboard the train. I don't see how, if none of the relevant paragraphs of the NRCoT apply (or equivalently, imagine a world in which NRCoT 14.2 and 14.3 did not exist), then the conclusion is that you can pass through the destination of your ticket non-stop.