• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Cigarette Sales to be restricted to over 21's

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. You brought up walking through smoke outside a pub as being unpleasant, I said that while it is unpleasant it's not something that public health policy should be focused on.

I would certainly prioritise "avoiding people experiencing other peoples' smoke, even fleetingly" over "seeking to stop adults choosing to take the knowingly life threatening choice to smoke".

Most public health policy is nannying to some extent. Educate and leave people to shorten their lives if they so choose. It is the business of them and their family, nobody else.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

GusB

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
8,182
Location
Elginshire
Sorry, but the idea of banning someone from smoking anywhere outside is completely over the top. If someone goes for a walk in a park, and stops to have a smoke, why shouldn't they be able to do so if there's nobody else around?

If I was to sit myself down on a park bench next to someone and light up then yes, you would have a point, but if it's well away from others, there's no harm to anyone other than the smoker.

Quite frankly it's not your business, either.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,734
Location
Scotland
I would certainly prioritise "avoiding people experiencing other peoples' smoke, even fleetingly" over "seeking to stop adults choosing to take the knowingly life threatening choice to smoke".
The latter, quite happily, also achieves the former.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The latter, quite happily, also achieves the former.

It does, but as I said I have a problem with that. Banning smoking in public places achieves it while not impinging on the rights of a smoker to smoke themselves to death in their own home if they so choose, with no adverse effect on me whatsoever.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,734
Location
Scotland
It does, but as I said I have a problem with that. Banning smoking in public places achieves it while not impinging on the rights of a smoker to smoke themselves to death in their own home if they so choose, with no adverse effect on me whatsoever.
So, I take it that you also object to the requirement to wear a seatbelt on the basis that it impinges on the rights of a driver to kill themselves in a car crash if they choose, with no adverse effect on anybody else?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
So, I take it that you also object to the requirement to wear a seatbelt on the basis that it impinges on the rights of a driver to kill themselves in a car crash if they choose, with no adverse effect on anybody else?

While I do wear a seatbelt, and would even were it not a legal requirement, yes, I do indeed object in principle to that legislation.

I do however support the mandatory provision of seatbelts in cars, because like workplace health and safety legislation it exists to level the playing field, and avoid a situation where, for example, someone may be compelled to buy a less safe car on the grounds of cost.

The exception would be for children where they should be mandatory to protect children from the negligent choices of parents. I would support mandatory cycle helmets for under 18s for the same reason, but would never support it for adults even though I do choose to wear one myself.
 

Dent

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2015
Messages
1,200
The exception would be for children where they should be mandatory to protect children from the negligent choices of parents.

But yet you want to make children (and for that matter other adults) in the same household as smokers suffer by banning the smoker from protecting them by going outside to smoke.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
But yet you want to make children (and for that matter other adults) in the same household as smokers suffer by banning the smoker from protecting them by going outside to smoke.

Other adults get to choose if they live there or not.

Children is more difficult. If you choose to have children and choose to live in a property without private outdoor space, then you probably need to choose not to smoke (perhaps with some Safeguarding legislation). Addiction is no excuse as vaping and patches are both available, and both are considerably cheaper than cigarettes.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,734
Location
Scotland
But yet you want to make children (and for that matter other adults) in the same household as smokers suffer by banning the smoker from protecting them by going outside to smoke.
That's a good point - maybe my comment about consistency of position was premature!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Children is more difficult. If you choose to have children and choose to live in a property without private outdoor space, then you probably need to choose not to smoke.
The first choice isn't always a choice, the second one definitely isn't for many people. And how many will make the third choice?
 

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,845
Location
Nowhere Heath
In response to the poster who commented on the law only permitting smoking indoors to the detriment of others' health, that's where a law on protecting public health from a smoker's choice gets difficult. For obvious reasons, not making others suffer someone smoking around them indoors but yet allowing the smoker to choose to puff away, there would have to be a way around that.

It's not a perfect solution, but for those without a private outdoor area, for example those living in a block of flats, then a segregated outdoor building would perhaps be the way forward. Preferably one with a door on it to keep the outside area free from the smoke wafting out of the smokers' shed (for lack of a better way of putting it), especially important on days when the wind is strong.

A number of airports have those rather clever smoking rooms where the smell and smoke doesn't waft out but gets extracted. I cannot remember where that was now, I didn't see it at JFK but it might have been Vienna. It's not a perfect solution, as obviously the smoke still goes somewhere but at least it would help to protect the non-smokers.

Of course, I'm still in support of pricing the stuff out of most people's reach along with an increase in the age restriction. It won't stop a lot of people, granted, but it will make some difference and that is what we should be aiming for right now. Decreasing the number of smokers will help no end in improving the public health, and as someone (Bletchleyite?) said it's unpleasant walking into/out of somewhere and the first thing you encounter is a crowd of smokers. Usually literally right next to the door as well.

When possible, I tend to avoid using a shop/cafe/whatever that allows such a thing to happen, and you can all deem that to be silly or whatever if you choose, but I'd rather take my money and support a cleaner and more sensible place. It does save me a fortune on coffee, as I generally don't buy from the places in town now. There's some nice places, with decent coffee, but when you have to walk past all the smokers to get served, no thanks. Worse is the other place next to it, because Coffee #1 may make smokers go outside but on warm days they open the sides of the shop up to cool the inside down. Where do the smokers sit? Next to said open space, no thanks I'll not go there either.

Is there an ideal solution? I don't think there is a sensible way to please all parties. One side will lose regardless of what happens. I do think public opinion is changing though, and in the coming years it'll get to a point where smoking is seen to be really unwise. Perhaps that's what will eventually cause the habit to die out, peer pressure from those who don't smoke, along with ex-smokers visibly demonstrating the benefits and the joys of not smoking. I know one of my team gave up for a few months, but somehow found themselves back on smoking.

Which reminds me of another problem also faced by those wanting to quit, breaking away from the social circle formed with smokers. It's hard to break that link with people you've known for a long time, but it's so worth the effort long-term. I still talk to most of the smokers, just not that much these days as we're all on different shifts now.

Anyway, enough of me vocalising my opinions on this matter. Given the choice, would I put the legal age up? Absolutely so. I would even consider the benefits of incentivising smaller shops to actively put the new rule in place, given the loss of income no doubt generated from the law change, for the first 6 months. The idea there being to help them transition over to being more responsible, and make sure they don't consider ignoring the law to make a few extra pounds.
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,844
Location
Stirlingshire
To quote Cancer Research UK:

Source: https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/ab...er/how-does-smoking-cause-cancer#tobaccorefs0

The National Institute of Health:


The World Health Organisation:



That still doesn't mean that you aren't less healthy than you could have been, nor that you will not develop a preventable cancer in the future.

None of these quotes sources answer the $64 Million Dollar question - will smoking definitely kill you.

It's all about risk and chance.

So I maintain my original stance namely smoking may be detrimental to your health not is.

How could I have been any healthier when I've not had a day off for 35 years ?

Sure I could develop a cancer but I could do that without smoking.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,734
Location
Scotland
None of these quotes sources answer the $64 Million Dollar question - will smoking definitely kill you.
Well, if you look at it that way, no. Smoking will not definitely kill you. Many smokers die of other things: car crashes, house fires, falling off cliffs, etc.
How could I have been any healthier when I've not had a day off for 35 years ?
Number of sick days isn't the only metric of health.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
In response to the poster who commented on the law only permitting smoking indoors to the detriment of others' health, that's where a law on protecting public health from a smoker's choice gets difficult. For obvious reasons, not making others suffer someone smoking around them indoors but yet allowing the smoker to choose to puff away, there would have to be a way around that.

Children are the problem there. If an adult doesn't like breathing the smoke, they can either seek to pressure the smoker to stop (as I said it is a choice, you can vape or use patches instead and both are cheaper), or they can move out.
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,844
Location
Stirlingshire
Well, if you look at it that way, no. Smoking will not definitely kill you. Many smokers die of other things: car crashes, house fires, falling off cliffs, etc.

Number of sick days isn't the only metric of health.

To be fair you stated or intimated all smoking is detrimental to health which is patently unfounded as many smokers suffer no ill effects and die from something unrelated to it. Granted a sizeable portion will succumb but by no means everyone, so in light of that are you willing to reconsider your position - ie change is to maybe.

As far as I am aware I have no illness or cause for concern - are you suggesting I'm a popular circular breakfast cereal containing fruit ?
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,734
Location
Scotland
To be fair you stated or intimated all smoking is detrimental to health which is patently unfounded as many smokers suffer no ill effects and die from something unrelated to it. Granted a sizeable portion will succumb but by no means everyone, so in light of that are you willing to reconsider your position - ie change is to maybe.
At the individual level it's impossible to make a definitive statement either way about the effect that anything has on health. But bans are applied at the population level, and at the population level there is no safe level of tobacco consumption. That's not my opinion, but the conclusion of just about every scientific study into the matter.

As far as I am aware I have no illness or cause for concern - are you suggesting I'm a popular circular breakfast cereal containing fruit ?
As you say, as far as you are aware.
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,844
Location
Stirlingshire
At the individual level it's impossible to make a definitive statement either way about the effect that anything has on health. But bans are applied at the population level, and at the population level there is no safe level of tobacco consumption. That's not my opinion, but the conclusion of just about every scientific study into the matter.


As you say, as far as you are aware.

Blimey you are a doom and gloom merchant :idea:

Currently at Brussels Airport - off to the smoking lounge to have a fag to cheer myself up.
 

duncanp

Established Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
4,856
To be fair you stated or intimated all smoking is detrimental to health which is patently unfounded as many smokers suffer no ill effects and die from something unrelated to it.

It is a matter of supreme irony that the person who is in the Guinness Book of Records as the oldest person who ever lived (Jeanne Calment of France - 122 years 164 days) was a lifelong smoker, only giving up at the age of 117.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
12,024
Location
here to eternity
It is a matter of supreme irony that the person who is in the Guinness Book of Records as the oldest person who ever lived (Jeanne Calment of France - 122 years 164 days) was a lifelong smoker, only giving up at the age of 117.

Every family has one - a great Uncle Ernie who smoked and drunk all his life and lived to 100. ;)
 

daveo

Member
Joined
13 Dec 2015
Messages
238
Amazing what short memories people have. Smokers were kicked out of just everywhere inside and now you want to extend that to outside as well ?

Is it not enough that Aircraft, Trains, Taxis, Bus and Coaches, Restaurants, Pubs, Cinemas and numerous other places are not now available to smokers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Tolerance is the word I'd use :D
All the places you listed ARE available to smokers so long as they abstain whilst using them!!!
 

Trackman

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2013
Messages
4,314
Location
Lewisham
It is a matter of supreme irony that the person who is in the Guinness Book of Records as the oldest person who ever lived (Jeanne Calment of France - 122 years 164 days) was a lifelong smoker, only giving up at the age of 117.
I remember this, she only gave up because she went blind and also liked a drink everyday (Brandy?) too.
None of these quotes sources answer the $64 Million Dollar question - will smoking definitely kill you.
But it stacks the odds against you compared to a non-smoker.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,245
Location
UK
This is a sensible idea - the old 'harm principle' coming in handy.
Would you also ban all other types of fire, in case someone accidentally were to inhale some carcinogenic smoke?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Walking through a cloud of fug outside the door of a pub is very unpleasant.
I had forgotten that the purpose of the law was entirely to ban things that you personally dislike.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Probably not. But that's no basis for banning smoking in open public spaces.

It is a basis for banning it from busier spaces, though probably not from very open spaces like parks where it is easy to avoid.

It is a much better basis than protecting people from their own bad choices, which is not, to me, the role of the State. Fundamentally the law exists, in my book, to protect people from the bad choices of others.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,734
Location
Scotland
It is a much better basis than protecting people from their own bad choices, which is not, to me, the role of the State.
I agree that the State shouldn't be nannying people, but when it comes to cigarettes there's zero reason not to ban their sale. They're designed to be dangerous.
 

Peter0124

Established Member
Joined
20 Nov 2016
Messages
2,755
Location
Glasgow
I agree that the State shouldn't be nannying people, but when it comes to cigarettes there's zero reason not to ban their sale. They're designed to be dangerous.
Are cigarettes also harmful to the environment?
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,844
Location
Stirlingshire
I agree that the State shouldn't be nannying people, but when it comes to cigarettes there's zero reason not to ban their sale. They're designed to be dangerous.

You're losing the plot rapidly, if there's zero reason not to ban their sale why hasn't it been done ? Think it through.

Are you employed by ASH ?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top