Christmas LU engineering works

[MatthewRead]

I've just found out that the District line is not running west of South Kensington over the festive period is the Piccadilly line running or is there works taking place in the Acton Town, otherwise could they at least keep the section to Ealing Broadway open or are they going to run the Piccadilly line there?

 

[Mojo]

Last year the District ran a shuttle Ealing Bdy -> Acton Town and the Piccadilly line ran trains stopping at all stations on the fast line (Ravenscourt Park and Turnham Green, and Stamford Brook Westbound only) however this caused all manner of delays. Where there have been similar closures this year, the Piccadilly has run roughly every 10 Min stopping at all stations on the local line with most services running fast along the fast lines.

 

[Dstock7080]

This year 26-30 Dec, there will be no train service (District or PICC) to Ealing Broadway, buses will replace trains.
Piccadilly trains will run 6tph down the local line, calling at all stations.

 

[MatthewRead]

This year 26-30 Dec, there will be no train service (District or PICC) to Ealing Broadway, buses will replace trains.
Piccadilly trains will run 6tph down the local line, calling at all stations.

Why not I don't see the harm in just keeping the small stretch to Ealing Broadway open

 

[Mojo]

Why not I don't see the harm in just keeping the small stretch to Ealing Broadway open

Running a shuttle last year caused all manner of delays to the Piccadilly line service due to the time taken to detrain, cross into the siding (21 Rd at Acton), and then cross back onto the platform. After the disruption it caused on Boxing Day the service was reduced to halfhourly but still managed to cause delays. Presumably they also decided that it would be impractical to only run from sealing Common too.

 

[MatthewRead]

Running a shuttle last year caused all manner of delays to the Piccadilly line service due to the time taken to detrain, cross into the siding (21 Rd at Acton), and then cross back onto the platform. After the disruption it caused on Boxing Day the service was reduced to halfhourly but still managed to cause delays. Presumably they also decided that it would be impractical to only run from sealing Common too.

Could they then try and run the Piccadilly to Ealing Broadway like in 2013 or at least try to run a service for the convenience of the passengers.

 

[Mojo]

Could they then try and run the Piccadilly to Ealing Broadway like in 2013 or at least try to run a service for the convenience of the passengers.

Industrial relations issues put a stop to that last time.

 

[MatthewRead]

Industrial relations issues put a stop to that last time.

What sort of issues it would relive the Central line of overcrowding as there won't be any GWR services into Paddington over that period so you must able to see where I'm coming from.

 

[Dstock7080]

What sort of issues

Piccadilly drivers are not trained to Ealing Broadway, so in 2015 required a District Line driver to ride in the front cab (previously called Pilot, now officially Conductor).
Some Piccadilly drivers were quite happy to be shown once and not require a conductor on the second trip but the Rules require each train to be conducted.

If a SPAD occurs, who is responsible?
The Piccadilly management insisted that the PICC driver is ultimately responsible, the Unions disagree.

Cross-Line working is also an issue for the Unions.

 

[NSEFAN]

Piccadilly drivers are not trained to Ealing Broadway, so in 2015 required a District Line driver to ride in the front cab (previously called Pilot, now officially Conductor).
Some Piccadilly drivers were quite happy to be shown once and not require a conductor on the second trip but the Rules require each train to be conducted.

If a SPAD occurs, who is responsible?
The Piccadilly management insisted that the PICC driver is ultimately responsible, the Unions disagree.

Cross-Line working is also an issue for the Unions.

How does it work on the big railway with responsibility for SPADs when drivers are being route conducted? Given that new drivers require training and instruction in the first place, this must be defined somewhere for the tube as well, surely?

 

[MatthewRead]

Piccadilly drivers are not trained to Ealing Broadway, so in 2015 required a District Line driver to ride in the front cab (previously called Pilot, now officially Conductor).
Some Piccadilly drivers were quite happy to be shown once and not require a conductor on the second trip but the Rules require each train to be conducted.

If a SPAD occurs, who is responsible?
The Piccadilly management insisted that the PICC driver is ultimately responsible, the Unions disagree.

Cross-Line working is also an issue for the Unions.

It was 2013 when the Piccadilly line went to Ealing Broadway.

 

[bramling]

Piccadilly drivers are not trained to Ealing Broadway, so in 2015 required a District Line driver to ride in the front cab (previously called Pilot, now officially Conductor).
Some Piccadilly drivers were quite happy to be shown once and not require a conductor on the second trip but the Rules require each train to be conducted.

If a SPAD occurs, who is responsible?
The Piccadilly management insisted that the PICC driver is ultimately responsible, the Unions disagree.

Cross-Line working is also an issue for the Unions.

This all just reflects so badly on the modern railway - surely the objective is not to have a SPAD in the first place?

The situation is no different to someone being piloted or conducted on their own line for a move they don't know. Typical Piccadilly Line management - can't resolve a simple basic issue.

The easiest solution is simply to draw up a timetable where the Northfields trains run to Ealing Broadway instead, with a pilot booked to the train between Acton Town and Ealing Broadway.

 

[Dstock7080]

It was 2013 when the Piccadilly line went to Ealing Broadway.

we are both incorrect, it was 26-30 December 2014 TTN176/14 refers.

 

[MatthewRead]

we are both incorrect, it was 26-30 December 2014 TTN176/14 refers.

No see my video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVlfUcW48Qw

 

[LU_timetabler]

No Picc or District between Acton Town and Ealing Broadway, get the Central or get a local bus, seems to be the general advice at the moment, not even sure there'll be a Rail Replacement Bus.

 

[MatthewRead]

No Picc or District between Acton Town and Ealing Broadway, get the Central or get a local bus, seems to be the general advice at the moment, not even sure there'll be a Rail Replacement Bus.

The idea is because GWR will not be running into Paddington during that period so that means everyone will be on the Central line making it severely overcrowded. This is from a normal passenger's point of view by having another tube service to Ealing Broadway whether it's District or Piccadilly it would take pressure off the Central line and relive it from severe overcrowding.

 

[LU_timetabler]

I get that, but it's Christmas there won't be any where near the normal numbers travelling. I strongly suspect that a lot of people will look at the engineering works and decide not to travel. I certainly do. The southern half of the circle will be limited to a 5 minute service from the District doing a South Ken to Upminster shuttle. That's a very significant service reduction, which suggests the numbers of people travelling will be low - around a third to a half of normal. I'm pretty certain that those above me will have looked very carefully at the usual travelling numbers at this time of year and reached their conclusions in the usual carefully calculated way.

 

[MatthewRead]

Where exactly is the engineering work taking place if its just in the Earl's Court area surely they could try and reverse the District line at West Kensington like they did in 2012.

 

[LU_timetabler]

They are working on the new points arriving eastbound into Earls Court. Also further work on the incompleted job they tried to do a few months back, that caused the engineering overrun into Monday service. Lillie Bridge depot access tracks also being worked on, which includes the West Kensington crossover. Be assured that if a service pattern has run previously and they aren't doing it this time - there's a reason for it. Either it didn't work, or it can't be done because of the nature of the work. Also local bus 391 duplicates a lot of the District line route from Richmond to Hammersmith.

 

[RJ]

Where exactly is the engineering work taking place if its just in the Earl's Court area surely they could try and reverse the District line at West Kensington like they did in 2012.

It wasn't an issue in 2012 when it was all D-Stocks. The S7s are too long to reverse at West Kensington.

 

[MatthewRead]

I get that, but it's Christmas there won't be any where near the normal numbers travelling. I strongly suspect that a lot of people will look at the engineering works and decide not to travel. I certainly do. The southern half of the circle will be limited to a 5 minute service from the District doing a South Ken to Upminster shuttle. That's a very significant service reduction, which suggests the numbers of people travelling will be low - around a third to a half of normal. I'm pretty certain that those above me will have looked very carefully at the usual travelling numbers at this time of year and reached their conclusions in the usual carefully calculated way.

I thought the idea is to get people out of their cars and onto the trains but if they are going to close large sections of the rail network then what choice do people have?

 

[Clip]

I thought the idea is to get people out of their cars and onto the trains but if they are going to close large sections of the rail network then what choice do people have?

Are you suggesting that they do not do the work then?

 

[87015]

I get that, but it's Christmas there won't be any where near the normal numbers travelling. I strongly suspect that a lot of people will look at the engineering works and decide not to travel. I certainly do. The southern half of the circle will be limited to a 5 minute service from the District doing a South Ken to Upminster shuttle. That's a very significant service reduction, which suggests the numbers of people travelling will be low - around a third to a half of normal. I'm pretty certain that those above me will have looked very carefully at the usual travelling numbers at this time of year and reached their conclusions in the usual carefully calculated way.

I doubt it, London Bridge, Charing X, Cannon Street are closed for much of the period for Thameslink works with passengers going to use the south side of the circle from those services diverted to Blackfriars/Victoria/Waterloo. LUL Have certainly not been told to expect a reduction in passenger numbers but the opposite.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I doubt it, London Bridge, Charing X, Cannon Street are closed for much of the period for Thameslink works with passengers going to use the south side of the circle from those services diverted to Blackfriars/Victoria/Waterloo. LUL Have certainly not been told to expect a reduction in passenger numbers but the opposite.

Indeed. The commuter hubs may get a little bit of respite but the Tube is frequently just as busy - if not busier - within zone 1 due to the influx tourists spending the period in the capital.

It's still the best (or, perhaps, least-worst) time to do many of the big blockades, though.