Christmas Day operation

[AlterEgo]

Doing what may I ask? Happy to finally get an answer from someone to the question I asked a fair while ago.

I was a carer in a nursing home. Wiping bums etc.

If railway staff had to work then it would be a normal day, for them anyway! Albeit with a higher rate of pay....

What is essentially being demanded is that railway staff should have to work at Christmas for the benefit of those who do not, and would indeed very likely be aghast at the very idea.

But that’s not what I’m suggesting at all. The railway should run a service. I don’t care how it does it, and am realistic that for people on existing contracts it’ll be optional work attracting an enhanced rate of pay. I’m not demanding that anyone gets cattle-prodded into work.

The great danger of course is playing the “trains are essential except when they aren’t” card, which is politically naive.

 

[cle]

Emergency services, NHS, taxi drivers, breakdown, people monitoring phone/broadband/electricity networks will all have people working on Christmas and Boxing Day.

Perhaps non-drivers would like to be able to get home from where they celebrated Christmas in time for work on the 27th.

Or non-drivers have split families and need to divide their time.

Or people who don't celebrate Christmas want to get to work.

You are welcome to take any of the other 363 days of the year to rest and see your family!

I 100% agree with this. And while I understand that most do cocoon on Christmas Day, Boxing Day is no more sacred or special than Easter Sunday when services run at a limited service. It also has huge sales. Do we really want all of these shoppers driving?

Flights run on both days. And workers staff the airports and planes. And many travel. Should they all drive too? Or should we ground aviation?

I would add that Boxing Day is one of the largest football and horse-racing days of the year - the latter especially was historically very well served by railways.

Our exceptionalism on this is crazy. Australia, the United States - all have some semblance of public transit on Christmas. We have so many tourists too, and hotels/pubs do indeed open for many - not to mention those who don't celebrate, those alone/freestyle, more complex family set-ups and blends which require movement, and most importantly, those who have to work.

Let alone comparing ourselves against the European countries which are basically closed on the average Sunday still have service, whom we mock for not being able to shop on Sundays, other than in railway stations or Le Marais!

You don't go into medicine or the police force thinking it isn't a public service, and that what you do doesn't need to exist 365 days a year. I don't think people should go into the railways thinking differently either. I would bet there are enough non-celebrating (or nonchalant / happy to take money) - staff who would take some extra cash and days off to do so. Much like every other industry.

 

[6Gman]

I also asked the question earlier but nobody answered it (no surprise). I’ll ask again anyway. To all these people who are calling for trains on Xmas and Boxing Day, if you don’t work on the railway are fully prepared to work on these days too?

I'd work Boxing Day.

And I think there should (if possible) be a limited service on that day.

[I'm trying to remember whether I worked a Boxing Day one year to put together some emergency unit and traincrew workings. It might have been the 27th.]

 

[Neptune]

I would add that Boxing Day is one of the largest football and horse-racing days of the year - the latter especially was historically very well served by railways.

Famously the Boxing Day football fixtures generally attract most clubs highest crowds of the season so not exactly the best example of people being unable to get around due to no public transport.

 

[Anonymous10]

With a storm approaching is it worth travelling long distance by rail this week? I was talking to my friends about going to London or Birmingham shopping for the day. London is closer and direct from Portsmouth Harbour. Is it worth the risk? I have christmas money to spend

Best advice for travelling Long distance in storms is only do it if you need to or can no longer alter plans, I will be travelling on Friday to Cornwall from Wales as a result I have a backup plan for if everything goes to pot for about half the journey but we shall see.

 

[Helvellyn]

Given most shops can't open Easter Sunday I'm surprised the railways never tried trading an Easter Sunday shut down in exchange for a Boxing Day operation. As someone who has worked Easter Sunday in the South East there wasn't a massive demand either!

 

[HullRailMan]

I chose a career path where I am required to work unsocial hours, but granted an early finish on 24th and 31st of December and a day off on 25th, 26th Dec and 1st Jan.

If someone else has chosen a career path where they have to go to work on a day/time when public transport isn't operating, that's their problem, not mine. If they just want to use the "essential public service" to enable them to spend time with family or friends then sorry, but I have just as much right to spend time with my family and friends as they do.

There are plenty of other "essential" public services which have limited availability, transport need be no different.

Let’s hope that if you require the assistance of an emergency service over Christmas one year, someone less selfish has taken time away from their family in order to support you.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Let’s hope that if you require the assistance of an emergency service over Christmas one year, someone less selfish has taken time away from their family in order to support you.

Pardon? I'm selfish because my contract of employment does not require me to work on bank/public holidays (Good Friday excepted)? Or I'm selfish because other people have chosen career paths where they are required to work on Christmas day?

Quite how is me not working on a day when I'm not contractually required to work any more selfish than those demanding my contract be changed so that I have to give up time with my family so that they can spend time with theirs?

There's a significant difference between somebody needing the emergency services (clue is in the name) and somebody wanting to catch a bus or train to the shops or Aunty Sheila's house.

If my contract required me to work over Christmas, it would be a different story. But it doesn't. And I'm in no rush to change that.

 

[Turtle]

I'd work Boxing Day.

And I think there should (if possible) be a limited service on that day.

[I'm trying to remember whether I worked a Boxing Day one year to put together some emergency unit and traincrew workings. It might have been the 27th.]

My job entailed maximum effort in the two months, December and January. Consequently I always worked Boxing day as and when there was a reduced service available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given most shops can't open Easter Sunday I'm surprised the railways never tried trading an Easter Sunday shut down in exchange for a Boxing Day operation. As someone who has worked Easter Sunday in the South East there wasn't a massive demand either!

The Scots do Boxing Day instead of 1st Jan, don't they? As a result of them having 2nd Jan as a bank holiday, the demand for travel on 1st is negligible.

I imagine Easter Sunday (which is very similar to Boxing Day in terms of what is open) would have less demand than Boxing Day, because Boxing Day has more long distance demand for those who haven't booked time off over Christmas and need to get home to go to work. I drove north west to south east on Boxing Day and it was busy enough - not mad but certainly considerable demand, probably more than a random midweek weekday but less than a normal Sunday.

 

[30907]

The Scots do Boxing Day instead of 1st Jan, don't they? As a result of them having 2nd Jan as a bank holiday, the demand for travel on 1st is negligible.

Train services in Scotland on Boxing Day have been very limited for years - this year's service in the Glasgow/Edinburgh/Perth triangle is a novelty, previously it was basically Strathclyde electrics.
So many Scotrail customers/staff have a 3rd day with no trains (as do the Newcastle area and most recently the Valley Lines).

I imagine Easter Sunday (which is very similar to Boxing Day in terms of what is open) would have less demand than Boxing Day, because Boxing Day has more long distance demand for those who haven't booked time off over Christmas and need to get home to go to work.

Easter Day is followed by Easter Monday, so in terms of longer distance travel you are right - but it is at a time of year when people are more likely to be "out and about" generally - for example, I can't imagine any heritage railway shutting then, whereas hardly any were open on Boxing Day for good commercial reasons (my local one was busy and had no difficulty getting volunteers to work).

 

[cle]

Famously the Boxing Day football fixtures generally attract most clubs highest crowds of the season so not exactly the best example of people being unable to get around due to no public transport.

Nowhere did I say people were stuck or unable to get around. I referenced driving multiple times. Clearly that will be the solve here - so you’re validating that point. These people are traffic and pollution.

 

[Helvellyn]

Aside from people's gut feeling and a few twitter posts is there any actual evidence of pent up demand for Christmas Day trains? Boxing Day is more open for debate but even then I'd say nothing more than a Sunday service. Even then I suspect a lot of trains would be carrying fresh air outside of 10:00-18:00.

Emergency services, NHS, taxi drivers, breakdown, people monitoring phone/broadband/electricity networks will all have people working on Christmas and Boxing Day.

Last time I checked I couldn't see my Dentist or GP on Christmas Day/Boxing Day, nor book myself in for a routine operation at my hospital if I wanted one. Mind you, nigh on impossible to do that on a Saturday/Sunday as well (or generally out of hours).

Having also been without broadband for three weeks as well I'd love to know the provider that had field engineers working over Christmas as well.

 

[cle]

Last time I checked I couldn't see my Dentist or GP on Christmas Day/Boxing Day, nor book myself in for a routine operation at my hospital if I wanted one. Mind you, nigh on impossible to do that on a Saturday/Sunday as well (or generally out of hours).

I don't think that's quite what we're saying. But there is a skeleton service of services, if you will - if you are burgled or hit by one of the many cars, you'd be thankful for Christmas Day workers (and therefore support their ability to commute?)

 

[dk1]

I don't think that's quite what we're saying. But there is a skeleton service of services, if you will - if you are burgled or hit by one of the many cars, you'd be thankful for Christmas Day workers (and therefore support their ability to commute?)

That's because it's in their condition of employment and they knew that when taking the job. As a train driver it's not in mine as clearly states Christmas & Boxing Days are guaranteed days off. No comparison is possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2023 ==

For all this hot air about running trains on the 25th & 26th, I've never once known my TOC or BR before it ever show any interest in doing so.

 

[Gloster]

I presume that it is a different attitude nowadays. I joined in 1978 and if I had been told that I should work on Christmas Day I would have done so as that was part of my job; I don’t know if it was in my contract, but I doubt it said anything about being guaranteed to be off on Christmas Day. I would have checked that I was the correct person according to the roster, but that was it. And we didn’t get massive pay, just time-and-a-half (I think) and a lieu day. I had joined a service industry and being on duty when required was what I expected.

 

[AlterEgo]

For all this hot air about running trains on the 25th & 26th, I've never once known my TOC or BR before it ever show any interest in doing so.

Because doing so would be expensive, as it would need to be covered by volunteers. The familiar refrain is that every day the railway ought to pay for itself - i.e. be at least breaking even or even mildly profitable.

This isn't a line I would advise front line staff to repeat too often because half the battle with that is reducing costs, including that of staffing the railway. Drivers in the midst of their pay dispute stepping on the "well railways are expensive so I am actually pleased someone is making them pay for themselves" landmine is surprisingly naive and only plays into the current government's strategy to destaff the railway and emasculate the unions.

Of course, it isn't even correct or intellectually consistent to use this line of logic. The railway operates a vast amount of infrastructure and services at a significant loss. Many branches are hugely loss-making. The fact is, the railway is a public utility and for huge swathes of its operation, exists to provide a social good. There are loads of mostly empty trains running on any given day, at unpopular times or on low traffic lines.

And that is why the railway should operate some sort of service 365 days a year. I don't much care if it's expensive; I don't think the railways should exist solely to try to extract profit.

 

[Austriantrain]

Having spent Christmas in various other countries, and having spoken to people from many other countries about ‘their’ Christmas, I have formed the opinion that here in Britain we make more of Christmas than anywhere else in the world. Almost everything shuts down, whereas in most of the rest of the world it is treated more like any other public holiday.

I got the impression that on Boxing Day everybody goes shopping?

Here in Austria, all the shops are closed on the 25th and 26th, and still all public transport is running (on Sunday timetables).

 

[43066]

No thanks. I’ll stick with my traditional Christmas and Boxing Day off work.

Everyone has their price .

But that’s not what I’m suggesting at all. The railway should run a service. I don’t care how it does it, and am realistic that for people on existing contracts it’ll be optional work attracting an enhanced rate of pay. I’m not demanding that anyone gets cattle-prodded into work.

The great danger of course is playing the “trains are essential except when they aren’t” card, which is politically naive.

I (and I suspect the unions) wouldn’t have any objection to a skeleton service on Xmas day/Boxing Day, just so long as it’s on the basis of volunteers only, and for an appropriate multiple of pay. I’d be wary of any proposals along these lines in the context of the current government’s approach, however.

Let’s hope that if you require the assistance of an emergency service over Christmas one year, someone less selfish has taken time away from their family in order to support you.

Railways aren’t emergency services, last I checked. And neither is it “selfish” for people to take time off work they’re contractually entitled to, including emergency first responders.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2023 ==

Because doing so would be expensive, as it would need to be covered by volunteers. The familiar refrain is that every day the railway ought to pay for itself - i.e. be at least breaking even or even mildly profitable.

This isn't a line I would advise front line staff to repeat too often because half the battle with that is reducing costs, including that of staffing the railway. Drivers in the midst of their pay dispute stepping on the "well railways are expensive so I am actually pleased someone is making them pay for themselves" landmine is surprisingly naive and only plays into the current government's strategy to destaff the railway and emasculate the unions.

Of course, it isn't even correct or intellectually consistent to use this line of logic. The railway operates a vast amount of infrastructure and services at a significant loss. Many branches are hugely loss-making. The fact is, the railway is a public utility and for huge swathes of its operation, exists to provide a social good. There are loads of mostly empty trains running on any given day, at unpopular times or on low traffic lines.

And that is why the railway should operate some sort of service 365 days a year. I don't much care if it's expensive; I don't think the railways should exist solely to try to extract profit.

Agreed.

 

[jagardner1984]

Reading this thread made me think of the many railway workers who will have worked this recent Christmas period (Network Rail staff, control room etc).

Was speaking to a taxi driver (ironically after public transport closed) the other night about the shift over time - essentially about the public holiday on the 2nd January here in Scotland and how New Years / Hogmanay was now much less of a “thing” here than in previous years.

As a self employed person, the idea of public holidays has always seemed rather amusing to me as I more often work them than not (my choice, not trying to impose on anyone else) - but thinking back to those days where I was employed - I continue to find it strange that of the 9 days of public holidays here in Scotland, which constituted a fair chunk of my paid annual leave, 4 of them were enforced together in an 8 day period which had no particular significance to me.

Personally I’d have preferred the choice to take those 4 days at a time of my convenience, but that choice was not offered to me.

So I wonder in 20 years time whether there may be a slightly more flexible approach to some of the bank holidays, given that - in a world of “mental health matters” and “it’s ok to not be ok” posters, enforcing isolation for lengthy periods of time (given in many jobs there is a shut down of close to 2 weeks) on some lonely people may not be seen as the untouchably good thing it seems to be seen as today.

If your current arrangement works for you - brilliant - I’m pleased for you, truly. But “one size fits all” in this scenario, I don’t think reflects the reality of the country we now live in.

As ever, very grateful to those who by choice or necessity kept the maternity units, the railway control rooms and the many other lifeline services going over this festive period.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The question is the cost of getting staff to agree to work it.

That cost is almost certainly far too high to be justifiable in the current environment.

Correct. This may change in the coming years as less and less people celebrate Christmas with the changing demographics of the country.

 

[dk1]

Everyone has their price .

Very true Each to their own and all that but having that choice in your employment is a wonderful thing.

 

[WAB]

Correct. This may change in the coming years as less and less people celebrate Christmas with the changing demographics of the country.

Many people of other religions also celebrate Christmas - particularly when they are raising families in this country (no kid wants to be the only one without presents in the class!)

 

[Bald Rick]

I got the impression that on Boxing Day everybody goes shopping?

Definitely not!

 

[30907]

Definitely not!

And indeed there were headlines of significant retailers choosing to shut. I didn't check which, sorry, but I doubt that concern for their staff was the sole reason.

Purely for info, as it has been posted in General Discussion:
I am indebted to a poster on another forum for quoting GT moody, Southern Electric 2nd ed: to summarise -
severe cuts were made to SR electric services for Christmas 1962 and the last suburban services ran in 1968, boat trains a year later.

 

[Austriantrain]

Definitely not!

So what *do* you do that you don’t need to travel?

We either stay at home, visit family or go for a walk (ski resorts excluded).

We also sometimes go on holidays right after the 24th.

Ok, some stuff is open - museums e.g., but that doesn’t suddenly turn all Viennese into museum goers.

In any case, for much of that we need transportation

 

[Bluejays]

Shall we ban driving and taxis over Christmas too? After all, breakdown crews, emergency services, taxi drivers etc all deserve the day off too

As someone else has pointed out, taxi and ride share drivers tend to be self employed, so they work when they want.

Incidentally, have you used many taxis around Ramadan and especially during the Eid celebrations at the end of it? In my part of the world taxi availability takes a nosedive. If you tried to mandate that the drivers had to work through Eid, I'd imagine you'd get a similar response to the railway staff on this thread about Christmas !