Christmas Day operation

[CyrusWuff]

Complete non-starter. Even if TOCs charged Anytime fares all day for a hypothetical Christmas Day service, the revenue wouldn't come anywhere close to covering the staffing costs needed to provide a meaningful service level.

Given staff are being offered triple time plus a day in lieu to work Boxing Day in some cases, I can see them looking for quadruple time plus a day in lieu to work Christmas Day.

 

[Neptune]

Run the trains and Christmas would change - for the better.

It’s fine making that statement but to not explain why you think it would be better is strange. Could you expand as to why please?

I for one appreciate 2 days with my family doing very little due to the fact that I work intensely M-F and generally I am busy on weekends with all the usual things that life throws at you (housework, days out, shopping etc….). To have 2 days of doing very little is an absolute god send and I don’t give a toss what they do in other countries because I aren’t there, I am here. There are 365 days in a year, I don’t understand why people don’t feel they can fit everything into 363 of them.

I also asked the question earlier but nobody answered it (no surprise). I’ll ask again anyway. To all these people who are calling for trains on Xmas and Boxing Day, if you don’t work on the railway are fully prepared to work on these days too?

 

[dk1]

I also asked the question earlier but nobody answered it (no surprise). I’ll ask again anyway. To all these people who are calling for trains on Xmas and Boxing Day, if you don’t work on the railway are fully prepared to work on these days too?

A question often dodged by such people who demand others serve them at Christmas

 

[Bletchleyite]

A question often dodged by such people who demand others serve them at Christmas

My Mum used to choose to work Boxing Day, it gave her a day away from us kids and quad time plus time off in lieu. With that on offer why wouldn't you?

I wouldn't myself want to work Christmas Day for any money but Boxing Day would be fair game for me at the right price. I would probably do it for double time but obviously wouldn't say no to more

In many ways it isn't sensible lumping the two in together. Road traffic on Christmas Day is near enough nonexistent. Road traffic yesterday (on the M1 at least) was busier than an average Tuesday.

 

[Turtle]

You say "Britain" but we must not forget of course that until relatively recently (the 60s) Christmas Day was not a holiday in Scotland!

Quite. As far as England is concerned the creation of the January Ist Public Holiday created the joined up Xmas/New Year break which has widely established itself. Getting a new job in 1979 my new employer proudly told me that I would be entitled to this. However it came at the expense of a compulsory deduction of 3 days leave. I was not impressed as I preferred to take my holidays at a time I chose.

 

[Bald Rick]

I worked 5 Christmas days in a row (non railway, double time), and something like 25 of the last 35 Boxing days (double time for the first 5, time off in lieu simce then). Some were my choice, some not (as per roster). With a couple of exceptions all have been very quiet.

 

[alansheppard77]

Looking at transit-related social media there's a lot of disbelief from non-UK countries that most UK public transport completely shuts down on Christmas Day. What are your thoughts on this matter? Is limited Christmas service practical or desirable?

In Switzerland they run a normal timetable at Christmas

 

[AlterEgo]

So Christmas Day would just become a day like any other? No thanks, I prefer this one day a year to remain special. And I expect many who would then be required to work on Christmas Day would think the same!

No, it wouldn’t be like any other day. Do you think Christmas Day is a normal day in the USA, for example? It isn’t. But the trains and buses run!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Again, answers here to suggest the railway should be operated for the benefit of staff instead of customers, which is a completely wrong view of priorities. I don’t doubt many would like Boxing Day off. I’d like my birthday and every weekend off too, but that’s not feasible. The point is, there is absolutely nothing significant about Dec 26th that should warrant an absolute cessation of all rail service. Christmas fair enough.

 

[dk1]

Again, answers here to suggest the railway should be operated for the benefit of staff instead of customers, which is a completely wrong view of priorities. I don’t doubt many would like Boxing Day off. I’d like my birthday and every weekend off too, but that’s not feasible. The point is, there is absolutely nothing significant about Dec 26th that should warrant an absolute cessation of all rail service. Christmas fair enough.

My contract of employment states I am guaranteed only two days off each year. They are the 25th & 26th of December and that’s not going to change. Boxing Day is significant to me and working that day is not.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s fine making that statement but to not explain why you think it would be better is strange. Could you expand as to why please?

- not everyone wants to spend three days with their family at the mercy of car transportation
- running public transport decarbonises Christmas
- people aren’t at the mercy of cars to see more than one family unit at Christmas, as many are obliged to
- much smoother demand for Christmas travel meaning all the cockups today and Christmas Eve for example are less impactful

Just a few off the top of my head.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Boxing Day is significant to me and working that day is not.

To be honest, it’s not really about what’s significant to individual staff members. When I was sous chef at a Cardiff restaurant it wasn’t particularly significant to me to work it (or Christmas Eve or NYE), but it is necessary for restaurants to be open on those days and therefore some staff are in. Those that want it off book it off. That’s the industry, and arguably public transport is more important to the nation than restaurants.

- not everyone wants to spend three days with their family at the mercy of car transportation
- running public transport decarbonises Christmas
- people aren’t at the mercy of cars to see more than one family unit at Christmas, as many are obliged to
- much smoother demand for Christmas travel meaning all the cockups today and Christmas Eve for example are less impactful

Just a few off the top of my head.

All the while public transport is just that, a public service, this is what’s important. Once again, I emphasise that the railways should be run primarily for customers.

 

[lachlan]

My contract of employment states I am guaranteed only two days off each year. They are the 25th & 26th of December and that’s not going to change. Boxing Day is significant to me and working that day is not.

What current members of staff have in their contract is one thing but perhaps that should change in the future.

 

[dk1]

To be honest, it’s not really about what’s significant to individual staff members. When I was sous chef at a Cardiff restaurant it wasn’t particularly significant to me to work it (or Christmas Eve or NYE), but it is necessary for restaurants to be open on those days and therefore some staff are in. Those that want it off book it off. That’s the industry, and arguably public transport is more important to the nation than restaurants.

And we’ve got by without the majority of trains running for around 50 years now. It is very much about what is significant to me. I’ll abide fully by my contract and remain at home on Christmas and Boxing Day just like my last 39 years. Nothing will change.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2023 ==

What current members of staff have in their contract is one thing but perhaps that should change in the future.

I can’t see it.

 

[Lewisham2221]

- not everyone wants to spend three days with their family at the mercy of car transportation
- running public transport decarbonises Christmas
- people aren’t at the mercy of cars to see more than one family unit at Christmas, as many are obliged to
- much smoother demand for Christmas travel meaning all the cockups today and Christmas Eve for example are less impactful

Just a few off the top of my head.

Anybody who doesn't want to spend 3 days with their family, or travel half way across the country or whatever isn't obliged to do so. It is a choice. A choice that you appear to wish to take away from those who work in the transport industry.

To be honest, it’s not really about what’s significant to individual staff members. When I was sous chef at a Cardiff restaurant it wasn’t particularly significant to me to work it (or Christmas Eve or NYE), but it is necessary for restaurants to be open on those days and therefore some staff are in. Those that want it off book it off. That’s the industry, and arguably public transport is more important to the nation than restaurants.

It is not "necessary" for restaurants to be open on Christmas Eve or NYE. The world will not come to a stand still if they close. It is a business decision.

All the while public transport is just that, a public service, this is what’s important. Once again, I emphasise that the railways should be run primarily for customers.

My dust bin isn't emptied if bin day falls on the 25th or 26th. I can't go to the tip on those days. I can't see my gp, a dentist or an optician. I couldn't, if I had children, send them to school. I would class all of those as essential public services, yet they are all unavailable over the christmas period.

What current members of staff have in their contract is one thing but perhaps that should change in the future.

Perhaps the same should apply to teachers, GP's, dentist's etc too?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can’t see it.

Largely because of the utterly ludicrous situation whereby the Unions won't accept new employees being on different contracts to existing ones, something that's very much the norm in the private sector and quite rightly so.

If all new railway staff were recruited with Boxing Day being mandatory you'd soon get to the point you could run it.

Same should be the case for Sundays. Existing staff by all means keep them optional, but for all new staff they should be mandatory.

 

[Neptune]

- not everyone wants to spend three days with their family at the mercy of car transportation

That is a personal choice you wish to take away from others

- running public transport decarbonises Christmas

Running a diesel train carrying fresh air isn’t decarbonising anything. You’d also be increasing car use for the many thousands you expect to be in work to run the railway (the majority of railway shift workers cannot use public transport to get public transport services running)

- people aren’t at the mercy of cars to see more than one family unit at Christmas, as many are obliged to

Again personal choice you wish to take away from others.

- much smoother demand for Christmas travel meaning all the cockups today and Christmas Eve for example are less impactful

This year impacted by Sunday working on Xmas Eve and don’t forget there is a gross shortage of staff at the moment.

Ok so railways are one of many industries which are pretty much closed on Christmas Day/Boxing day. Name me which others should be working that day please and the reasons for it.

I take it none of these industries will mean you have to work on these two days as nobody wanting a Xmas day service has yet come forward to say they’d work it.

For crying out loud it’s 2 days of the year where people can reset the batteries or see loved ones they don’t see the rest of the year. Why are so many people obsessed with travelling on public transport for those 2 days?

 

[lachlan]

That is a personal choice you wish to take away from others

Running a diesel train carrying fresh air isn’t decarbonising anything. You’d also be increasing car use for the many thousands you expect to be in work to run the railway (the majority of railway shift workers cannot use public transport to get public transport services running)

Again personal choice you wish to take away from others.

This year impacted by Sunday working on Xmas Eve and don’t forget there is a gross shortage of staff at the moment.

Ok so railways are one of many industries which are pretty much closed on Christmas Day/Boxing day. Name me which others should be working that day please and the reasons for it.

I take it none of these industries will mean you have to work on these two days as nobody wanting a Xmas day service has yet come forward to say they’d work it.

For crying out loud it’s 2 days of the year where people can reset the batteries or see loved ones they don’t see the rest of the year. Why are so many people obsessed with travelling on public transport for those 2 days?

Emergency services, NHS, taxi drivers, breakdown, people monitoring phone/broadband/electricity networks will all have people working on Christmas and Boxing Day.

Perhaps non-drivers would like to be able to get home from where they celebrated Christmas in time for work on the 27th.

Or non-drivers have split families and need to divide their time.

Or people who don't celebrate Christmas want to get to work.

You are welcome to take any of the other 363 days of the year to rest and see your family!

 

[AlterEgo]

Emergency services, NHS, taxi drivers, breakdown, people monitoring phone/broadband/electricity networks will all have people working on Christmas and Boxing Day.

Perhaps non-drivers would like to be able to get home from where they celebrated Christmas in time for work on the 27th.

Or non-drivers have split families and need to divide their time.

Or people who don't celebrate Christmas want to get to work.

You are welcome to take any of the other 363 days of the year to rest and see your family!

Quite succinctly put.

The level of ire that “maybe the railway industry should run more festive trains” gets from front line staff is really quite indicative of the political position the railway occupies now. It’s not a good omen and things will get worse for everyone before they get better.

(And yes I’ve worked plenty of christmases!)

 

[Neptune]

For the record I am office based and don’t work any bank holidays so I wouldn’t suffer if it was brought in.

Emergency services, NHS, taxi drivers, breakdown, people monitoring phone/broadband/electricity networks will all have people working on Christmas and Boxing Day.

Essential services so quite right.

Perhaps non-drivers would like to be able to get home from where they celebrated Christmas in time for work on the 27th.

Or non-drivers have split families and need to divide their time.

I take it they’ve never managed to spend time with families over Christmas ever then.

Or people who don't celebrate Christmas want to get to work.

So they've never made it into work on those 2 days?

You are welcome to take any of the other 363 days of the year to rest and see your family!

I see them regularly but then again I don’t have an antisocial hours job so it’s easy for me unlike others who do work shifts.

I take it you’re prepared to work on Christmas Day too?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2023 ==

Quite succinctly put.

The level of ire that “maybe the railway industry should run more festive trains” gets from front line staff is really quite indicative of the political position the railway occupies now. It’s not a good omen and things will get worse for everyone before they get better.

(And yes I’ve worked plenty of christmases!)

Christmas day? And are you prepared to do so at the expense of seeing loved ones?

 

[Gloster]

The reason for there being no train services on Christmas and Boxing Days is simple: it wouldn’t pay. Even with minimal staffing and only a limited service on selected lines, it would make a loss.

You would not have the normal travel patterns: people would largely be travelling as a family group, quite possibly with more baggage than usual (presents), from one home to another. It is possibly cheaper and probably easier for most to travel by car and they don’t need to worry about where they park the car, as they would when going to work, shopping, entertainment, etc. They don’t want to be tied to a timetable and want to be free to travel when they want. The number of people who don’t fall into these categories would just not make it a paying proposition.

There is also the matter of contracts. I believe that a few years ago South East Trains looked at running on Boxing Day, but as it wasn’t in their contract they would have had to bear the full commercial risk.

 

[lachlan]

For the record I am office based and don’t work any bank holidays so I wouldn’t suffer if it was brought in.

Essential services so quite right.

I take it they’ve never managed to spend time with families over Christmas ever then.

So they've never made it into work on those 2 days?

I see them regularly but then again I don’t have an antisocial hours job so it’s easy for me unlike others who do work shifts.

I take it you’re prepared to work on Christmas Day too?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2023 ==


Christmas day? And are you prepared to do so at the expense of seeing loved ones?

You are missing the point - public transport is an essential service and if you don't view it as such then you don't understand the importance of the work you do and there's no point in arguing with you further about it

Shall we ban driving and taxis over Christmas too? After all, breakdown crews, emergency services, taxi drivers etc all deserve the day off too

 

[AlterEgo]

Christmas day? And are you prepared to do so at the expense of seeing loved ones?

Yeah, I’d work it. I have done before and for minimum wage.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Emergency services, NHS, taxi drivers, breakdown, people monitoring phone/broadband/electricity networks will all have people working on Christmas and Boxing Day.

Correct. Perhaps people could use a taxi to get where they "need" to go on Christmas Day and Boxing Day?

Perhaps non-drivers would like to be able to get home from where they celebrated Christmas in time for work on the 27th.

Perhaps transport workers would like to get some time at home to celebrate Christmas?

Or non-drivers have split families and need to divide their time.

They have another 363 days of the year to do that

Or people who don't celebrate Christmas want to get to work.

Perhaps they should consider how they will get to work over Christmas, when they take a job which requires them to work over Christmas? Much like how transport workers have to get to work when there is no transport running.

You are welcome to take any of the other 363 days of the year to rest and see your family!

Apart from the ones where they are working, obviously?

 

[Neptune]

Yeah, I’d work it. I have done before and for minimum wage.

Doing what may I ask? Happy to finally get an answer from someone to the question I asked a fair while ago.

 

[lachlan]

Correct. Perhaps people could use a taxi to get where they "need" to go on Christmas Day and Boxing Day?


Perhaps transport workers would like to get some time at home to celebrate Christmas?


They have another 363 days of the year to do that


Perhaps they should consider how they will get to work over Christmas, when they take a job which requires them to work over Christmas? Much like how transport workers have to get to work when there is no transport running.


Apart from the ones where they are working, obviously?

Perhaps taxi drivers would like time at home to celebrate Christmas. Or do they not count as transport workers?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Perhaps taxi drivers would like time at home to celebrate Christmas. Or do they not count as transport workers?

Taxi drivers are generally self employed. Most of those working will be doing so by choice.

 

[ComUtoR]

Have worked it in the past
Happy to work it in the future
It's already part of my contract

My personal belief is that there should be a choice but that choice is both for the business operating the service and the staff working it.

Where I live there is a shop in a major shopping centre who never open on a Sunday. Should they be forced to open 'for it's customers' or should the customers accept that it's not available on Sundays.

For me, it's not my place to force anyone to work or open for my own personal beliefs or desires. I can however, choose to use or withhold custom accordingly.

 

[dk1]

I see this thread is going in the way it does year after year. Round & round & round &....

 

[Falcon1200]

No, it wouldn’t be like any other day. Do you think Christmas Day is a normal day in the USA, for example? It isn’t. But the trains and buses run!

If railway staff had to work then it would be a normal day, for them anyway! Albeit with a higher rate of pay....

What is essentially being demanded is that railway staff should have to work at Christmas for the benefit of those who do not, and would indeed very likely be aghast at the very idea.