Christmas Day operation

[eldomtom2]

Looking at transit-related social media there's a lot of disbelief from non-UK countries that most UK public transport completely shuts down on Christmas Day. What are your thoughts on this matter? Is limited Christmas service practical or desirable?

 

[HSTEd]

The question is the cost of getting staff to agree to work it.

That cost is almost certainly far too high to be justifiable in the current environment.

 

[lachlan]

It would be good to have some Christmas Day transport given the number of split families and people sharing Christmas between different places

Personally though I would be more interested in setting up New Year's Day transport first so folks can get home after New Years celebrations. This may be more realistic than trying to find people to work on Christmas day

 

[CarrotPie]

Looking at transit-related social media there's a lot of disbelief from non-UK countries that most UK public transport completely shuts down on Christmas Day. What are your thoughts on this matter? Is limited Christmas service practical or desirable?

The question is the cost of getting staff to agree to work it.

That cost is almost certainly far too high to be justifiable in the current environment.

Surely one must be able to find enough staff who don't celebrate Christmas (or are happy to work) for some decent pay. In Finland, where virtually everyone celebrates Christmas (and virtually everyone is a white, Christian Finn), public transport runs a limited timetable until lunchtime, then it's a Sunday timetable for the rest of the day and back to normal on the 26th.

Even on the 24th (the main day for celebration in Finland), services end around 4pm (limited services afterwards), but even the national railway operator put on two dozen extra services on that day to get the crowds around!

 

[Darandio]

I'm not sure making comparisons with other countries is ever helpful. Taking the Finland example, i'm pretty sure all supermarkets just open as normal on Christmas day and Sunday is just a normal day with normal hours. It's probably always been like that and people are just used to it.

You'll always get opposition to any such changes here.

 

[Bald Rick]

Having spent Christmas in various other countries, and having spoken to people from many other countries about ‘their’ Christmas, I have formed the opinion that here in Britain we make more of Christmas than anywhere else in the world. Almost everything shuts down, whereas in most of the rest of the world it is treated more like any other public holiday.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, when was the last time there was a widespread public train service across the majority of the GB network? Early to mid 1960's?

 

[Mag_seven]

I have formed the opinion that here in Britain we make more of Christmas than anywhere else in the world.

You say "Britain" but we must not forget of course that until relatively recently (the 60s) Christmas Day was not a holiday in Scotland!

 

[6Gman]

When this subject comes up (as it does at least once a year!) the discussion tends to revolve around traincrew.

Isn't the bigger issue manning stations and (in particular) signalboxes?

Finding 10 volunteer drivers from a pool of (say) 60 drivers is one thing. If there are only a handful of signallers who can work a particular 'box (or panel) isn't that more of a problem?

This is, of course, independent of the issue of how loss-making such provision would be and who would pay for it.

 

[Neptune]

I ask the question to the people suggesting that there should be a Christmas Day service would they also be willing to work that day themselves?

 

[AF91]

When this subject comes up (as it does at least once a year!) the discussion tends to revolve around traincrew.

Isn't the bigger issue manning stations and (in particular) signalboxes?

Finding 10 volunteer drivers from a pool of (say) 60 drivers is one thing. If there are only a handful of signallers who can work a particular 'box (or panel) isn't that more of a problem?

This is, of course, independent of the issue of how loss-making such provision would be and who would pay for it.

I think this is an issue that a lot of people overlook. In order to make a Christmas or boxing day service work you need drivers and guards for non DOO lines, dispatchers at many stations, signallers and NR maintenance staff before a single train can move. On top of that you need a certain degree of station staff and revenue protection staff in place to assist with the operation.

The fact that all the above staff would need to be persuaded to volunteer, and even if paid at a normal hourly wage would be paid as overtime, means that even a simple operation would become very expensive very quickly. There is a good reason why boxing day services have so far only been seen for routes with guaranteed customer flows such as between London and its airports or between London and Bicester Village for boxing day sales. Even with guaranteed passenger numbers, the boxing day services are limited to low frequencies over a limited route for limited hours. For this reason, I doubt that a Christmas day service, which would likely only see a trickle of people using it, would ever get close to having a solid business case.

 

[eldomtom2]

For this reason, I doubt that a Christmas day service, which would likely only see a trickle of people using it, would ever get close to having a solid business case.

Which raises the question as to why it's seen as having a solid business case in so many other countries...

 

[AlterEgo]

Which raises the question as to why it's seen as having a solid business case in so many other countries...

It isn’t just about a business case but a social one too. People can’t pretend the UK is somehow exceptional in this regard.

 

[CarrotPie]

For this reason, I doubt that a Christmas day service, which would likely only see a trickle of people using it, would ever get close to having a solid business case.

I'd argue a limited (say hourly or two-hourly) afternoon service on most routes would be well-used, with families and friends (and railcards) returning home from relatives' houses or just looking to go out in the afternoon.

TfL could probably make a fair bit of money running a Sunday (or worse) service in the afternoon, because London is so densely-populated and has a lot of people who don't celebrate Crimbo, so would be happy to use/work a service.

 

[HSTEd]

Which raises the question as to why it's seen as having a solid business case in so many other countries...

A lot of railways abroad have a lower personnel requiements to operate and have worse pay for staff.

The relative primacy of decentralised signalling systems, with the attendent staffing requirements, are a major problem here.

At the other extreme, if you are operating a GoA 4 metro like a VAL system or what not, you only need one staff member to work in the control room.

 

[deltic]

Judging by the crowds in central London on Christmas Day there would certainly be plenty of takers for an underground service.

There were a few years when private companies ran bus services in London on Christmas day and they were quite busy.

 

[Gloster]

In my opinion, the differences are as much for social and cultural reasons as anything else. In this country it is the one big festival of the year when the whole family gets together and celebrates. I have spent Christmases in four (north European) countries and it is much more of a low-key religious event, even if more than usual attention is paid to it by non-Christians. However, it is still just one of a number of religious festivals, albeit one of the more important, so it is not marked out as the big one. There is also, in my opinion, less of the situations of families being split up around the country and ignoring each other most of the year, but making it up by going over the top at Christmas.

So most countries keep on with a near normal life over Christmas, but we go bananas. ‘Got to be with the family as much as possible’ becomes the norm and people just don’t travel.

 

[eldomtom2]

A lot of railways abroad have a lower personnel requiements to operate and have worse pay for staff.

I'm talking about public transport in general here, not just railways.

 

[dosxuk]

There seems to be a growing social desire to move the other way, with larger companies being pressured to not open on boxing day or new years day in order to allow their staff to have more time at home.

 

[whoosh]

Having spent Christmas in various other countries, and having spoken to people from many other countries about ‘their’ Christmas, I have formed the opinion that here in Britain we make more of Christmas than anywhere else in the world. Almost everything shuts down, whereas in most of the rest of the world it is treated more like any other public holiday.

As we have less public holidays than most other countries, and a famine of any after the end of August, then it's not really a surprise that the two together Christmas/Boxing Day in December are craved for!

 

[renegademaster]

There seems to be a growing social desire to move the other way, with larger companies being pressured to not open on boxing day or new years day in order to allow their staff to have more time at home.

It's less to do with social pressure, more that their is a labour shortage and employers need incentives to win staff.
People also forget zero hours works both ways, the employer doesn't have to give your hours but the employee doesn't have to work a shift they do not want to work , and employees may not be able to find enough people to turn up.

 

[RT4038]

It's less to do with social pressure, more that their is a labour shortage and employers need incentives to win staff.
People also forget zero hours works both ways, the employer doesn't have to give your hours but the employee doesn't have to work a shift they do not want to work , and employees may not be able to find enough people to turn up.

Christmas Day and Boxing Day public transport operations ceased at a time when this was not a consideration at all. The only significant part of the passenger transport industry on zero hours contracts is taxis/private hire vehicles, and there are plenty of them running on these days.

Bus and rail services are just not seen as economical propositions [which on their own they probably aren't], and are not seen as important to provide in our society.

 

[Lewisham2221]

As someone who works in public transport, I find it more frustrating that there are continued calls to operate later services on Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve, along with services on Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Year's Day, often from people who themselves finish work a few days before Christmas and don't start back again until the new year.

 

[30907]

Judging by the crowds in central London on Christmas Day there would certainly be plenty of takers for an underground service.

Very interesting. Genuine question: as there was no public transport, where did they come from? Tourists staying over Christmas and finding nothing to do? Central London residents? People who drove in because no congestion charge/ULEZ?

I agree with other posters that our all-day Christmas Day is atypical for Europe, where mostly the celebration is on Christmas Eve.

The last major reason for people to travel on the day was football, which had ended completely by the mid 60s. By then of course car ownership was widespread and train services were being drastically cut back - I recall my Victoria-Orpington local stopper being 4 return trips on its last Christmas Day (1971?) - that's 1/8 of a normal Sunday!

 

[lachlan]

As someone who works in public transport, I find it more frustrating that there are continued calls to operate later services on Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve, along with services on Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Year's Day, often from people who themselves finish work a few days before Christmas and don't start back again until the new year.

Unfortunately, you've chosen a career path where you are providing an essential public service and so it follows that your services may be required at unsociable hours.

 

[dk1]

I have no complaints about what I do shift wise 363 days (364 leap years) but my contract has always stated I do not have to work on the 25th/26th December and that’s never going to change for me.

Again it’s not a good idea to rely on volunteers as at anytime you could promise something that may not be delivered. Also for Christmas Day it’s going to have to be triple time, possibly a bonus, and a guaranteed extra day in lieu to make it worthwhile for most traincrew. It’s simply a non-starter for a large proportion of routes in the UK.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Unfortunately, you've chosen a career path where you are providing an essential public service and so it follows that your services may be required at unsociable hours.

I chose a career path where I am required to work unsocial hours, but granted an early finish on 24th and 31st of December and a day off on 25th, 26th Dec and 1st Jan.

If someone else has chosen a career path where they have to go to work on a day/time when public transport isn't operating, that's their problem, not mine. If they just want to use the "essential public service" to enable them to spend time with family or friends then sorry, but I have just as much right to spend time with my family and friends as they do.

There are plenty of other "essential" public services which have limited availability, transport need be no different.

 

[Falcon1200]

How many people really want to travel on Christmas Day, and where would they go? There are no sporting fixtures and very few shops open, certainly no big ones anyway.

My railway role required me to work on Christmas Day, Boxing Day and every other Public Holiday, when my rostered shifts fell on those days (and night shift on Christmas Eve was no fun, at all, when the children were small) but I knew that when I took the job. Personally I have no interest whatsoever in going anywhere, at all, on Christmas or Boxing Day, it is a time for staying at home.

 

[deltic]

Very interesting. Genuine question: as there was no public transport, where did they come from? Tourists staying over Christmas and finding nothing to do? Central London residents? People who drove in because no congestion charge/ULEZ?

I agree with other posters that our all-day Christmas Day is atypical for Europe, where mostly the celebration is on Christmas Eve.

The last major reason for people to travel on the day was football, which had ended completely by the mid 60s. By then of course car ownership was widespread and train services were being drastically cut back - I recall my Victoria-Orpington local stopper being 4 return trips on its last Christmas Day (1971?) - that's 1/8 of a normal Sunday!

Lot of tourists, tourist sightseeing buses were well loaded, lots of Ubers, and plenty of private cars. Interested to know how the many hospitality workers in central London travel to work on Christmas day.

 

[eldomtom2]

For some context, here are some of the tweets from non-UK residents that inspired me to make this thread - the general attitude is bafflement that a city like London completely shuts down all public transport for Christmas:

https://twitter.com/macsquirelera/status/1739200692865384934

https://twitter.com/Kalinsky_/status/1739333704659480591

https://twitter.com/the_transit_guy/status/1739456205469237294