Christmas Card and general postal deliveries...a query raised.

[jfollows]

I asked this question back in post #19, but it seems as though it is an aspiration, not a legal commitment.

There is, though, legislation which allows the presumption of a delivery of First Class mail on the next-but-one business day in various cases - I may have got my terminology slightly wrong but essentially the law allows the presumption of delivery and it's only possible to rebut this with evidence that it wasn't the case. For example, in the case of speeding cameras, the notification of the intent to prosecute for a speeding offence needs to be served on the registered keeper of the vehicle within 14 days of the alleged offence, and sending it by First Class mail two business days or more prior to the expiry of this time is allowed to be sufficient, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. There are cases when the non-delivery has been proved, but it's generally hard to do. There are a number of cases building up at the moment in which this may be the case because of the postal strikes, but again it's going to be hard to prove the negative - that the post wasn't delivered in time - in many of the cases.

 

[MotCO]

There is, though, legislation which allows the presumption of a delivery of First Class mail on the next-but-one business day in various cases - I may have got my terminology slightly wrong but essentially the law allows the presumption of delivery and it's only possible to rebut this with evidence that it wasn't the case. For example, in the case of speeding cameras, the notification of the intent to prosecute for a speeding offence needs to be served on the registered keeper of the vehicle within 14 days of the alleged offence, and sending it by First Class mail two business days or more prior to the expiry of this time is allowed to be sufficient, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. There are cases when the non-delivery has been proved, but it's generally hard to do. There are a number of cases building up at the moment in which this may be the case because of the postal strikes, but again it's going to be hard to prove the negative - that the post wasn't delivered in time - in many of the cases.

I would suggest that, in your example of a speeding fine, it is the DVLA or Police who assume that First Class post is delivered withn 2 days, and not Royal Mail. Therefore, I would not expect any claim against Royal Mail to succeed.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I would suggest that, in your example of a speeding fine, it is the DVLA or Police who assume that First Class post is delivered withn 2 days, and not Royal Mail. Therefore, I would not expect any claim against Royal Mail to succeed.

I'm not sure @jfollows was intending to make a claim against RM or anyone else, merely stating that the law allows a sender to assume that correspondence has been received after 'plus one working day'. As such the clock starts ticking against any timescale required to reply to that correspondence on that assumed day of receipt. So, if you have 14 days to respond, or a fine is reduced if you pay within 14 days (eg parking offences), it is going to be rather difficult to meet that timescale if first class post is taking 15 days to arrive. Thus there will be people who lose out because of the current shambles.

 

[jfollows]

I would suggest that, in your example of a speeding fine, it is the DVLA or Police who assume that First Class post is delivered withn 2 days, and not Royal Mail. Therefore, I would not expect any claim against Royal Mail to succeed.

As Baxenden Bank also says, there is no claim to be made against Royal Mail. The presumption is one which allows the sender to assume delivery unless there is evidence to the contrary. Nothing more than that. If a notice which needs to arrive within 14 days is posted "in time" then its recipient has to prove the contrary if the recipient wants to prove that it was not validly served and therefore the alleged crime can no longer be prosecuted, for example. The postman delivering the mail has been called as a witness in such cases, but otherwise there is no legal obligation on the Royal Mail.

 

[Gloster]

Could it be argued that, as it is well known that the post is seriously disrupted and delayed, right up to the level of Royal Mail having put warnings on their website, it is unreasonable for the sender to continue to automatically presume that the letter will be delivered within two working days. It is therefore unreasonable to penalise the recipient, who may not know that the letter has been sent.

 

[jfollows]

To put hypothetical dates on this, if I'm out driving tomorrow and I break the speed limit and I'm "observed" doing so by a camera and I'm not stopped at the time of the alleged offence, then the registered keeper of the car I'm driving needs to be informed within 14 days, tomorrow is 3 January, so by 17 January at the latest. Which means the notice can be served by First Class post if posted on 13 January or earlier.
If it's posted on (or before) 13 January but does not arrive until after 17 January then, if the registered keeper can prove this, the offence can not be prosecuted. However if the recipient can't prove this, the sender is allowed to assume that the notice was delivered in time and the offence can be prosecuted.
It can't be argued that this might be the case because of disruption and delays, but it can be argued that it is the case if there is supporting evidence to the claim of late delivery. Which is more likely at the moment than it used to be.
The legislation which supports this is unchanged because of the current disruption, clearly.

EDIT Note that the legislation also supports the hand delivery of the notice in person to the registered keeper within 14 days, but does not allow the use of Second Class delivery using Royal Mail because no presumption of delivery can be made using this service. Recipients sometimes wrongly assume that Second Class mail has been used when in fact First Class mail with discount for bulk mailers has been used, if you really want to get into the weeds here.

Bottom line - if you're "caught" speeding at the moment then it'd be useful to have a witness prepared to testify to support a claim of late delivery of First Class post if you're looking for a legal angle to "get off" the charge. However it would appear that most police forces post out the notices reasonably well in advance of the deadline already, to be on the safe side. "Our" (not "my") most recent (Greater Manchester Police) was well within 14 days.

FURTHER EDIT If you want to take advantage of this presumption of delivery, post items at the Post Office and request a free certificate of posting at the time you do so. This will record the date of posting and the recipient for you.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Could "deemed delivery" boilerplate legal clausing be considered to be an unfair term when imposed by the party to a contract with the much greater leverage or negotiating power?

 

[jfollows]

Could "deemed delivery" boilerplate legal clausing be considered to be an unfair term when imposed by the party to a contract with the much greater leverage or negotiating power?

I don't believe so, per my update to my last post which came after yours it's perfectly possible for you and me to use this presumption also. Indeed, if you reply to a notice of an alleged speeding offence by naming yourself as the driver I would always strongly suggest that you do so using First Class post and with a certificate of posting to ensure that - if for some reason the police force loses your reply - you can show that you sent it in time.

 

[Starmill]

I don't believe so, per my update to my last post which came after yours it's perfectly possible for you and me to use this presumption also. Indeed, if you reply to a notice of an alleged speeding offence by naming yourself as the driver I would always strongly suggest that you do so using First Class post and with a certificate of posting to ensure that - if for some reason the police force loses your reply - you can show that you sent it in time.

Indeed. Also in the case of an alleged driving offence, I'm not sure what contractual relationship would be relevant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2023 ==

Could it be argued that, as it is well known that the post is seriously disrupted and delayed, right up to the level of Royal Mail having put warnings on their website, it is unreasonable for the sender to continue to automatically presume that the letter will be delivered within two working days. It is therefore unreasonable to penalise the recipient, who may not know that the letter has been sent.

You could use the information provided by Royal Mail as evidence of a delay, were you to make the argument in your defence. How persuasive it would be I don't know.

 

[DelW]

Three more cards delivered today - one unfranked second class, one unfranked first class, and one first class franked on 19th December, over a fortnight ago.

At least they arrived before 12th night, but not by much.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Three more cards delivered today - one unfranked second class, one unfranked first class, and one first class franked on 19th December, over a fortnight ago.

At least they arrived before 12th night, but not by much.

I too had a christmas card delivered today along with Modern Railways published 12th December! The card was also franked 19th December but stamped second class. Interestingly posted in Somerset, delivered to Stoke-on-Trent (North West Midlands mail centre) but franked Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Two more of my missing Christmas Cards arrived just after noon today. White envelopes with typed addressed labels on both of them. Both posted in the Warrington area with the new Christmas 2nd class stamps and both franked on 6th December 2022.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I got one on Friday which was posted on 15th Dec. I think that's it, most people seem to have just not bothered bar the ones I got in person.

 

[Annetts key]

At least they arrived before 12th night, but not by much.

Ahh, but the powers that be are “modernising” this to become the twelve weeks of Christmas…

 

[jon0844]

Ahh, but the powers that be are “modernising” this to become the twelve weeks of Christmas…

I think retailers would love to go to twelve months of Christmas if they could!

 

[DannyMich2018]

I posted 3 cards (2 Christmas and 1 birthday) about 10 days before Christmas, 1 arrived 3 days before Christmas, the other two still not arrived despite been posted all together and going to the same address only 30 miles away!! Fortunately there is no money or vouchers enclosed!!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Today, I received my copy of the November-December 2022 issue 199 of Rail Engineer and three more Christmas Cards, all with correctly printed addresses and all carrying the Warrington franking mark clearly shown as 6th December 2022.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On Tuesday I sent a number of items from work, franked second class.

Today, Thursday, we received the first three replies back - in second class reply paid envelopes.

Anyone still think paying extra for first class postage is worth it...?

 

[Starmill]

On Tuesday I sent a number of items from work, franked second class.

Today, Thursday, we received the first three replies back - in second class reply paid envelopes.

Anyone still think paying extra for first class postage is worth it...?

I personally pay Second Class for almost everything I want to send physically, but the reality is still that First Class will get your mail sorted with higher priority if there's not enough capacity to have everything sorted and sent to delivery offices the night you send it.

 

[gswindale]

We sent 2 cards to my parents on the 16th Dec (both 2nd class). One arrived on Monday 19th as when speaking to them, they thanked our little one for his card. The other (from myself & my wife) arrived either on 30th or 31st.

Both were posted in the same bag in the car park at work...

On the 2 occasions this week when I've seen our posties, they've again been 2 separate posties doing different deliveries - please can somebody explain how that makes sense - they bang on on the app and website about how they're more environmentally friendly than their competitors, but when you get one Evri van per day and 2 Royal Mail vans per day (assuming they're not striking), then I find it hard to believe...

 

[duncombec]

Yesterday's post bought two laughs in the same delivery

Your starter for ten: A Christmas Card, franked 12th December in Cornwall, the franking including the advice that the last posting date for Christmas was 16th... yes... seems that wasn't such a wise move after all...

Bonus: A flyer for the Royal Mail Prescription Delivery Service. Now, even though this would be treated as high priority, I couldn't help but think "yes, but would any medication arrive by the time it was needed?!"

 

[DarloRich]

Up to today, Wednesday 28th December, I had noticed that a large number of expected Christmas cards had not arrived. However the postman arrived at noon today with a total of 28 Christmas cards all posted in England with 2nd class stamps on them. Checking through the franking marks on the envelopes, the dates ranged from Thursday, 1st December to Tuesday, 6th December which all fell well within the updated posting date for 2nd class stamps. I hope that those cards had not fallen foul of a deliberate attempt to cause annoyance during the current postal dispute.

Have any other website members faced anything similar on items posted to them well before the posting deadline 2022?

According to my postman they have been told to prioritise parcels over post in the aftermath of strikes. His comment was that parcels earn the Royal Mail owners more money than your cards and letters.

I am still getting pre xmas post and my private eye is late

 

[jfollows]

Bonus: A flyer for the Royal Mail Prescription Delivery Service. Now, even though this would be treated as high priority, I couldn't help but think "yes, but would any medication arrive by the time it was needed?!"

Mine did, from "Pharmacy2U" who use Royal Mail, but only just, and I'd ordered an additional batch just in case, both of which I now have. The first batch wasn't treated as "high priority" in any way by Royal Mail, but the second batch used a more expensive service.
Mind you, the benefit of using the postal service was significant at the start of the Covid-19 pandemic when a lot of pharmacies were closed, and far outweighed the minor problem with more recent postal delays.

 

[Annetts key]

According to my postman they have been told to prioritise parcels over post in the aftermath of strikes. His comment was that parcels earn the Royal Mail owners more money than your cards and letters.

I’ve just received the last of three small packages that I ordered on Boxing Day. The first arrived on the 30th December (sent and received within the mainland U.K.), the second arrived yesterday (from China) and the last arrived today (also from China).

My Radio Times magazines over the Christmas period have arrived before their respective start dates.

As said further up in this topic, Royal Mail are likely dealing with new post and are only digging into the backlog once the current days post has been processed.

 

[Starmill]

We sent 2 cards to my parents on the 16th Dec (both 2nd class). One arrived on Monday 19th as when speaking to them, they thanked our little one for his card. The other (from myself & my wife) arrived either on 30th or 31st.

Both were posted in the same bag in the car park at work...

On the 2 occasions this week when I've seen our posties, they've again been 2 separate posties doing different deliveries - please can somebody explain how that makes sense - they bang on on the app and website about how they're more environmentally friendly than their competitors, but when you get one Evri van per day and 2 Royal Mail vans per day (assuming they're not striking), then I find it hard to believe...

Multiple trips from the delivery office to your address might not be avoidable if there's an item that's too large for the normal round. If something is Special Delivery an extra run might be required to get it there on time, otherwise RM may be required to pay compensation for the delay. Mail may also be late into your delivery office meaning additional deliveries are sent out if possible.

It's difficult to comment because we can't know what size and how many parcels your delivery office handles, or if they've been getting things on time.

 

[londonbridge]

Still waiting for a Christmas card which my friend said she posted December 9th.

 

[Gloster]

I got my Private Eye yesterday: the address sheet said it was Mailed 1st Class on Tuesday 13th December 2022 (perhaps the inclusion of 2022 was because they weren’t optimistic as to just how long it would take). The Eye has been one of the items that seemed to be least affected by the delays of recent months.

 

[Bevan Price]

Received one Christmas card yesterday (4 January) - unfranked, plus next week's Radio Times (7-13 January issue), but still not had the 24 December issue.

 

[Steddenm]

An Post here in Ireland have just launched a digital stamp. Well kind of.

You write the code you see on the purchase on your envelope in a box, such as:

N D M H 8 G S 9 X A U W

...and pop in a post box. You also get a delivery notification to say its got there.

See

 

[crablab]

An Post here in Ireland have just launched a digital stamp. Well kind of.

You write the code you see on the purchase on your envelope in a box, such as:

I had one of these delivered today! I had no idea what it was until I saw this